Midair Collision Near Waddesdon
I'm afraid that such lovely days as today - especially as winter is approaching - are probably the most dangerous to fly on.
So many GA warriors and training flights leap airborne to take advantage of the weather that congestion is inevitable and the 'Big Sky' theory of avoidance just doesn't work.
As someone has already mentioned, visibility from high-wing FW is poor, especially above or into turns - I have been nearly taken out several times as one has climbed through my level without seeing me.
Transponders and TCAS should be made compulsory for all GA.
My condolences to the bereaved and their families and friends - another sad day in aviation.
So many GA warriors and training flights leap airborne to take advantage of the weather that congestion is inevitable and the 'Big Sky' theory of avoidance just doesn't work.
As someone has already mentioned, visibility from high-wing FW is poor, especially above or into turns - I have been nearly taken out several times as one has climbed through my level without seeing me.
Transponders and TCAS should be made compulsory for all GA.
My condolences to the bereaved and their families and friends - another sad day in aviation.
Traffic avoidance gear isn't actually that expensive provided you have avionics capable of displaying the information and that all other aircraft are at least mode C equipped and visible to SSR.
ADS-B does improve the latter somewhat.
ADS-B does improve the latter somewhat.
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I have been nearly taken out several times as one has climbed through my level without seeing me.
TCAS/FLARM isn't the solution here. Have some 3,000 odd hours in that area. Know it very well - always busy even when the weather is not as good as it was today and the only solution is a good, solid (well taught) and continual lookout.
Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver
the only solution is a good, solid (well taught) and continual lookout.
Situational awareness is more than just using the eyeballs.
I'm not familiar with the UK way of doing things but get the impression that there are bottlenecks for GA aircraft dealing with controlled airspace and perhaps there is too much reliance on ATC to maintain separation?
Personally, I have been of the opinion that traffic avoidance tech is a good tool to help eliminate someone else's mistake from reaching you - possibly naively so.
Duchess Driver ... Just explain how TCAS would not have alerted either one to the vicinity of the other . Every time I have used TCAS I have been shocked at how close I have come to other aircraft without knowing they were there .
I agree with Crab and really think ALL GA should have Transponders and TCAS especially if flying in the south where the bottlenecks will only get worse . One would hope the cost drops significantly if that was the case . I am afraid I don't believe any amount of looking around can stop this sort of thing happening especially with so many blind spots on aircraft and sometimes looking through the windshield into the sun is almost futile .
The tech is there and we should use it in my view .
I agree with Crab and really think ALL GA should have Transponders and TCAS especially if flying in the south where the bottlenecks will only get worse . One would hope the cost drops significantly if that was the case . I am afraid I don't believe any amount of looking around can stop this sort of thing happening especially with so many blind spots on aircraft and sometimes looking through the windshield into the sun is almost futile .
The tech is there and we should use it in my view .
Avoid imitations
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I'm not familiar with the UK way of doing things but get the impression that there are bottlenecks for GA aircraft dealing with controlled airspace and perhaps there is too much reliance on ATC to maintain separation?
This tragic accident occurred in Class G airspace and ATC would certainly not have been providing separation. It's possible that neither aircraft was receiving any type of ATC service at all.
Doesn't make much sense how two aircraft leaving the same base and with a converging routing wouldn't be aware of the other.
Bell Ringer . In the UK in the UK you will only have ATC coverage from a major airport and then , unless requested , you will sign off as soon as outside their area . I dont think we really want to be in a position where we have to be talking to ATC in class G airspace . We are lucky here to have relatively free airspace and can fly over most of our country without speaking to anyone but that comes at a price and maybe that price is that we monitor ourselves with the tech available . I will now certainly be adding TCAS to my aircraft because like Crab , i have had too many aircraft converge on me and get scarily close.
but it only works if ALL aircraft must have a transponder .
but it only works if ALL aircraft must have a transponder .
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Following this tragic accident, I really think we need a rethink regard collision avoidance in the UK.
In relation to fixed wing aircraft, in respect of high wing aircraftm they are very blind in the turn, which is why we teach to lift the wing prior to the turn, although from my experience of conducting renewals quite a few pilots do not. The low wing aircraft on the whole in terms of visibility much better. Bi planes are worse that high wing aircraft.
I can speak for rotary wing pilot's pilot's but I am surethey have limitations, although the Bell 47 must have had the best visibilty of all helicopters ever manufactured.
There are technological fixes to this problem such a TCAS or the ability to see flightradar24 in real time whilst airbourne.
But there are some more low tech fixes that would help improves matters, such as keeping landing lights on all time, ensuring an AFISO is on duty at A/G airfields, establish VRPs for the purpose of departure of departure, and rejoins, listening out on R/T and building the 'big picture' 'SITAW'. Then there are the Human Factors issues of looking out for other aircraft, such as constant angles, makings or colour of aircraft, the the fact that white is not the best colour, but I understand, but I understand the limitations of colours on GRP or carbon fibe aircraft. I should add why would you want to paint the underside of a light aircraft light blue.
Sailplanes (gliders) are another problem, generally white, constant changing height and heading and at times really difficult to see in the turn, but some are on on flightradar24. I am really not sure what the solution is in relation to gliders and it is not helped that they have less ability (energy) for evasive action.
In relation to fixed wing aircraft, in respect of high wing aircraftm they are very blind in the turn, which is why we teach to lift the wing prior to the turn, although from my experience of conducting renewals quite a few pilots do not. The low wing aircraft on the whole in terms of visibility much better. Bi planes are worse that high wing aircraft.
I can speak for rotary wing pilot's pilot's but I am surethey have limitations, although the Bell 47 must have had the best visibilty of all helicopters ever manufactured.
There are technological fixes to this problem such a TCAS or the ability to see flightradar24 in real time whilst airbourne.
But there are some more low tech fixes that would help improves matters, such as keeping landing lights on all time, ensuring an AFISO is on duty at A/G airfields, establish VRPs for the purpose of departure of departure, and rejoins, listening out on R/T and building the 'big picture' 'SITAW'. Then there are the Human Factors issues of looking out for other aircraft, such as constant angles, makings or colour of aircraft, the the fact that white is not the best colour, but I understand, but I understand the limitations of colours on GRP or carbon fibe aircraft. I should add why would you want to paint the underside of a light aircraft light blue.
Sailplanes (gliders) are another problem, generally white, constant changing height and heading and at times really difficult to see in the turn, but some are on on flightradar24. I am really not sure what the solution is in relation to gliders and it is not helped that they have less ability (energy) for evasive action.
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Very sad news. Have more than a few good stories from flying with that fella.
To those that think tcas is a panacea, I now fly in an aircraft with supposed excellent tcas, and previously pcas. They are adequate at best and the risk is spending lots of time looking in, and then in the wrong place to where the tcas wrongly thinks the other contact is, and can be a huge distraction.
To those that think tcas is a panacea, I now fly in an aircraft with supposed excellent tcas, and previously pcas. They are adequate at best and the risk is spending lots of time looking in, and then in the wrong place to where the tcas wrongly thinks the other contact is, and can be a huge distraction.
Thanks Nigel, it's similar here.
It's always challenging when there is common airspace but varying requirements to be able to use it.
Having a transponder is one thing, having it enabled and on alt is another.
I think we have all had far too many calls that were too close for comfort
It's always challenging when there is common airspace but varying requirements to be able to use it.
Having a transponder is one thing, having it enabled and on alt is another.
I think we have all had far too many calls that were too close for comfort
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I trained at Wycombe. Airspace chock full of F/W, rotors and gliders as well. "Sufficient lookout" is impossible. I was going to do my IMC there but I felt it was too risky.
How many more avoidable deaths before we admit that TCAS or ATC deconfliction should be mandatory?
How many more avoidable deaths before we admit that TCAS or ATC deconfliction should be mandatory?
One thing that has occurred to me recently is that modern avionics seem to (potentially) require more head in the cockpit (unless managed and taught appropriately).
In the olden days when we only had 180 channels on VHF (100 kHz spacing) one could change from say 119.5 to 126.1 in a couple of seconds. Now especially with the smaller electronic displays it takes longer and more fiddling to change from say 126.225 to 134.175. I teach to change the whole MHz first and then have a lookout before setting the decimals. Same applies when changing ILS/VOR frequencies where with sets like the GNS430 I now have to find and press a changeover button before changing frequency. One of the latest mode S transponders require one to alter and then enter each digit separately and sometimes the transponders are sited on the other side of the cockpit. At one level this might sound trivial but it isn't in the sense that it encourages pilots to be more head in the cockpit. Add in the mix of other devices which many pilots use now and we have even more ingredients for not looking out adequately.
In fact you're much more likely to have a close encounter or a mid air in the circuit area than the open FIR notwithstanding choke points. Historically there have even been collisions worldwide within controlled airspace and I believe in the USA some time ago the statistics showed highest risk of midair was in airspace with mixed VFR/IFR traffic close to an airport which is equipped with radar.
Whilst I'm not a luddite I don't think this risk will be entirely solved by requiring all aircraft to have transponders with TCAS and/or be in receipt of an ATC service.
In the olden days when we only had 180 channels on VHF (100 kHz spacing) one could change from say 119.5 to 126.1 in a couple of seconds. Now especially with the smaller electronic displays it takes longer and more fiddling to change from say 126.225 to 134.175. I teach to change the whole MHz first and then have a lookout before setting the decimals. Same applies when changing ILS/VOR frequencies where with sets like the GNS430 I now have to find and press a changeover button before changing frequency. One of the latest mode S transponders require one to alter and then enter each digit separately and sometimes the transponders are sited on the other side of the cockpit. At one level this might sound trivial but it isn't in the sense that it encourages pilots to be more head in the cockpit. Add in the mix of other devices which many pilots use now and we have even more ingredients for not looking out adequately.
In fact you're much more likely to have a close encounter or a mid air in the circuit area than the open FIR notwithstanding choke points. Historically there have even been collisions worldwide within controlled airspace and I believe in the USA some time ago the statistics showed highest risk of midair was in airspace with mixed VFR/IFR traffic close to an airport which is equipped with radar.
Whilst I'm not a luddite I don't think this risk will be entirely solved by requiring all aircraft to have transponders with TCAS and/or be in receipt of an ATC service.
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Agreed. Pilot workload especially in small GA is ludicrous. Why are are we still fiddling with knobs and frequencies? Why not a touchscreen with the nearest 6 ATCs marked on it in plain English?
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From time to time I fly northwards from Blackbushe towards Buckingham, VFR. Farnborough West LARS hand me over to Farnborough North LARS roughly when I'm abeam High Wycombe, but I've often found that I cannot raise Farnborough North until I'm around where this accident happened. Perhaps it is a coverage blackspot (at 2000-2500 feet). And on a sunny day, Farnborough LARS are usually too busy to offer me more than a Basic service.
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Quite possible neither pilot had any fixed route/destination and were just out for a local flight.
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You seem to be assuming that both aircraft were flying pre-planned routes. As one was apparently a school aircraft, it could well have been doing training manoeuvres in uncontrolled airspace. I learned to fly at Wycombe Air Park and have had that sort of session in that area. Safety depends on continual observation at all times, which can be quite difficult if you're concentrating on flying an unfamiliar manoeuvre or observing your student doing so, and if there is no TCAS or other aids to help you.
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Also google "ntsb-see-and-avoid-isnt-enough" (sorry, can't post links
)