Midair Collision Near Waddesdon
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Celebrating Mike
Plenty of time for arguing over TCAS and learning from the safety report but for now I just want to say what an incredible loss this man is to us all.
Being taught by Mike was like being taught by your Grandad, only my actual Grandad was not able to conduct a backwards auto in an R22 from low level and land within its own skid length, followed by a grin and then gently saying “ok then?”
Can’t speak highly enough of him and can only hope if heaven exists then God has just logged his first lesson with one of the greats!
RIP Captain Green
Being taught by Mike was like being taught by your Grandad, only my actual Grandad was not able to conduct a backwards auto in an R22 from low level and land within its own skid length, followed by a grin and then gently saying “ok then?”
Can’t speak highly enough of him and can only hope if heaven exists then God has just logged his first lesson with one of the greats!
RIP Captain Green
What a very sad accident. It seems almost sacrilegious to turn it into an argument about TCAS (etc) vs eyeballs.
Someone asked about the US. I've had TCAD (TCAS without RA) for 15 years (Garmin 330). I feel very uncomfortable flying without it, especially in a heli. The traffic picture is part of my scan, along with the outside. Flying into a busy airport like Palo Alto, it is a huge help. Now I have ADS-B (Garmin 345) which is even better.
A recent example... last weekend I was flying to Auburn, about 120 miles away. For the last 15 minutes there was another aircraft ahead of me on the screen, gradually getting closer, most likely going to the same airport. I kept clear of it using TCAS even though I never saw it until we were both almost in the traffic pattern. Then on the way back out someone got uncomfortably close on the way in, manouvered to be sure to keep clear. I was talking to ATC and so were they, but still very nice to know where they were. Never actually saw them.
And a negative example... descending through 13000 feet in a non-TCAS aircraft (fast) with a VERY experienced ex-mil instructor - saw an A320 pass WAY too close for comfort. Would never have happened with TCAS/ADS-B.
As for weight and cost... the GTX-330 or 345 is like any other transponder, and there is nothing else. You need a display but it couples into a GNS-430 or 530 or similar. My 330 cost about $5K in 2002, the 345 about the same in 2016 - not cheap but relative to the general cost of flying, not ridiculous. And now you can get even cheaper ADS-B In devices that couple to an iPad. Worth every penny, and much more, for the constant knowledge of what's out there.
Someone asked about the US. I've had TCAD (TCAS without RA) for 15 years (Garmin 330). I feel very uncomfortable flying without it, especially in a heli. The traffic picture is part of my scan, along with the outside. Flying into a busy airport like Palo Alto, it is a huge help. Now I have ADS-B (Garmin 345) which is even better.
A recent example... last weekend I was flying to Auburn, about 120 miles away. For the last 15 minutes there was another aircraft ahead of me on the screen, gradually getting closer, most likely going to the same airport. I kept clear of it using TCAS even though I never saw it until we were both almost in the traffic pattern. Then on the way back out someone got uncomfortably close on the way in, manouvered to be sure to keep clear. I was talking to ATC and so were they, but still very nice to know where they were. Never actually saw them.
And a negative example... descending through 13000 feet in a non-TCAS aircraft (fast) with a VERY experienced ex-mil instructor - saw an A320 pass WAY too close for comfort. Would never have happened with TCAS/ADS-B.
As for weight and cost... the GTX-330 or 345 is like any other transponder, and there is nothing else. You need a display but it couples into a GNS-430 or 530 or similar. My 330 cost about $5K in 2002, the 345 about the same in 2016 - not cheap but relative to the general cost of flying, not ridiculous. And now you can get even cheaper ADS-B In devices that couple to an iPad. Worth every penny, and much more, for the constant knowledge of what's out there.
Last edited by n5296s; 18th Nov 2017 at 17:23.
Nope - The fixed wing was south/West of the Heli. . . . then established same course slightly behind and above. Providence . . . .
Fred
Fred
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They'd still hear the beep and be warned that something was close, even if they had no directional information.
n1tut:
Could anybody tell me if Mike used to fly with Bristow helicopters?
Cheers
David
Could anybody tell me if Mike used to fly with Bristow helicopters?
Cheers
David
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Thanks, Mike would have been after my time then, I did MW in '66 in the Royal Marines then when I joined Bristow Aberdeen in '77 we later had a Capt Mike Green on the Tiger, but as I retired early in '93 I have lost touch with most since then.
He certainly seemed a very talented and respected Instructor, hard to imagine that the cause was any other than wrong place, wrong time.
He certainly seemed a very talented and respected Instructor, hard to imagine that the cause was any other than wrong place, wrong time.
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@wealthysoup
Answering on your questions can push my position within speculation area,
which is not my intention.
Knowing that:
There are, at the moment 1691 FR24 receivers ("radars") in UK
Some in range of that particular incident are:
EGLL
F-EGLL1
T-EGLL98
T-EGLL101
EGLF
F-EGLF1
T-EGLF8
T-EGLF46
EGVN
F-EGVN1
EGTK
F-EGTK3
F-EGTK2
EGGW
T-EGGW95
T-EGGW100
F-EGGW1
T-EGGW125
may be at last 20+ more of T kind around too....
So should be enough F type data for multilateration (4 is minimum) .... and post-processing if
necessary.
If someone is (even officially) interested to request data from FR24 servers,
that is possible and good practice.
FR24 data was used for some high profile incidents, where radar coverage was limited.
For this case investigators can have enough official sources of data, but who knows.
@Bell_ringer that is true in case that number of FR24 sites is low.
I have opposite experience of FR24 overlay on GPS track recorded on
Cabri G2 in Germany with more than fair accuracy, even during autorotation phase of training flight.
Just for educational purpose what is source of my educated guess, public data from FR24 of both flights...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ucbpxrcmln...52_G2.jpg?dl=0
and another angles, cleared
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4vbszoiml..._G2_1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1lesr05ls..._G2_2.jpg?dl=0
both KML files loaded in Google Earth Pro and screen taken to jpg
Answering on your questions can push my position within speculation area,
which is not my intention.
Knowing that:
There are, at the moment 1691 FR24 receivers ("radars") in UK
Some in range of that particular incident are:
EGLL
F-EGLL1
T-EGLL98
T-EGLL101
EGLF
F-EGLF1
T-EGLF8
T-EGLF46
EGVN
F-EGVN1
EGTK
F-EGTK3
F-EGTK2
EGGW
T-EGGW95
T-EGGW100
F-EGGW1
T-EGGW125
may be at last 20+ more of T kind around too....
So should be enough F type data for multilateration (4 is minimum) .... and post-processing if
necessary.
If someone is (even officially) interested to request data from FR24 servers,
that is possible and good practice.
FR24 data was used for some high profile incidents, where radar coverage was limited.
For this case investigators can have enough official sources of data, but who knows.
@Bell_ringer that is true in case that number of FR24 sites is low.
I have opposite experience of FR24 overlay on GPS track recorded on
Cabri G2 in Germany with more than fair accuracy, even during autorotation phase of training flight.
Just for educational purpose what is source of my educated guess, public data from FR24 of both flights...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ucbpxrcmln...52_G2.jpg?dl=0
and another angles, cleared
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4vbszoiml..._G2_1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1lesr05ls..._G2_2.jpg?dl=0
both KML files loaded in Google Earth Pro and screen taken to jpg
Last edited by 9Aplus; 19th Nov 2017 at 11:28.
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Captain Mike Green is a tragic loss to the industry ...
He did some check rides on me 15 years ago with Fast Helicopters at Thruxton ... he was a very experienced man then, and a "top drawer" instructor ... ...
Rest in Peace
He did some check rides on me 15 years ago with Fast Helicopters at Thruxton ... he was a very experienced man then, and a "top drawer" instructor ... ...
Rest in Peace
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Collision Avoidance Technology
I’ve flown from Wycombe for decades, fixed wing and gliders. What I would say is that TCAS, PCAS, FLARM etc are great in lower traffic density areas, but can be distracting in an area like the west of Heathrow zone where there is a lot of traffic squeezed into cramped class G. I eventually turned it off in these areas (except in visibility minimums when there were only a few othe madmen out anyhow) because it is constantly alerting you or attracting your eye and attention when you’d be better off looking out of the window and flying the aeroplane.
I like technology and I like being safe. But you can’t remove all risk from aviation simply by adding another system. Think of the accidents that have happened because people were head down in the cockpit systems, when head up was what would have saved them.
I like technology and I like being safe. But you can’t remove all risk from aviation simply by adding another system. Think of the accidents that have happened because people were head down in the cockpit systems, when head up was what would have saved them.
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It was not standard to have to follow TCAS in any case like it is today at that time. So don't blame the pilot.
ATC was understaffed, had phone-line troubles and gave conflicting instructions. So I'm not blaming that poor ATC guy neither. The ATC organization above did a poor job that day.
ATC was understaffed, had phone-line troubles and gave conflicting instructions. So I'm not blaming that poor ATC guy neither. The ATC organization above did a poor job that day.
It might not have been standard to have to follow the RA, but it was well understood by the manufacturers and those of us in receipt of proper training that manoeuvring in the opposite sense of the RA was very dangerous.
I still don't blame the crew; they had bad training and in spite of the fact that good training guidance was available it was not successfully promulgated around the industry....... AND STILL ISN'T.
For those advocating TCAS: Bear in mind it is designed for transport category controlled airspace separations, traffic density and performance. I suspect (but don't know never having looked at it for the GA role) that it would be a lot less use than many might think. If nothing else I can imagine the datalink freqs getting utterly saturated.
Don't get me wrong, much as 'see and avoid' should be an essential part of the arsenal it is not a total solution, even when practised rigorously. But TCAS is NOT and never will be, a panacea. Especially for GA.
And I say this as a TCAS training expert and advocate of TCAS.
Cpt PB - we are not talking about TCAS 2 and RAs - a simple TAS with audio would have at least got the crews looking in the right direction (especially up/down).
There is no doubt in my mind that if both aircraft in this sad event had been similarly equipped, they would have both known about and avoided each other.
A little yellow blob on a screen with a relative height readout and an audio warning could easily have saved four lives.
Having been through the military fighter pilot training thing early in life, the whole 'lookout' is good training but ultimately hampered by human limitations.
There is no doubt in my mind that if both aircraft in this sad event had been similarly equipped, they would have both known about and avoided each other.
A little yellow blob on a screen with a relative height readout and an audio warning could easily have saved four lives.
Having been through the military fighter pilot training thing early in life, the whole 'lookout' is good training but ultimately hampered by human limitations.
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As someone who flies rotary and FW, with TCAS in the FW, I can attest that it’s not a good solution on its own. Often the warnings come very late, and a decent lookout is the best first line of defence.
I do think there are bigger issues which should be fixed before mandatory TCAS though. Such as the glider pilots from Bicester who sit at the end of Oxford’s Instrument approach watching G5s almost hit them, saying “I can’t have a transponder because they take up too much battery power”...
I do think there are bigger issues which should be fixed before mandatory TCAS though. Such as the glider pilots from Bicester who sit at the end of Oxford’s Instrument approach watching G5s almost hit them, saying “I can’t have a transponder because they take up too much battery power”...
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How desperately sad about Mike Green. He was the examiner for my R22 and 206 ratings back in the late 90's when he was at Fast Helicopters as-was at Thruxton. Fantastically unflappable pilot. RIP.
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Mike flew with us on the Bristow operation at Eket, Nigeria in the early eighties. Great chap to have around, enjoyed his football and if memory serves he was a Spurs supporter. We met again when he was at FAST. He became a legend in the Flight Training industry and I am proud to have worked along side of him. A great loss to the Industry and a sad sad day for his family.
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For those advocating TCAS: Bear in mind it is designed for transport category controlled airspace separations, traffic density and performance. I suspect (but don't know never having looked at it for the GA role) that it would be a lot less use than many might think. If nothing else I can imagine the datalink freqs getting utterly saturated.
As I said before, I've been flying with it for VFR / IFR in Class G for almost 20 years now (and the previous 25 flying without it) and I do know how good it is. It's not the perfect answer, and no system will ever be, but it is far better than flying without.