Do you let people have a go?

[The Night Owl]

Is it legal to have unlicensed pilots etc in the p2 seat with duels in or should they be taken out?

... that said my first go's weren't under official instruction

[evil7]

@chopjock

If these observers told you that, it was total bull....
A colleague and I tried it once. I was PF and he sat beside me. He reached over and handled the controls (sans pedals) from his side. It worked and I think he might have gotten us down in one piece (we stopped it at a save height), BUT ..,,,

He had more experience than me at that time (couple of thousand hours) and it was an R44 where he could easily reach the stick!!! And I was fully awake and ready to take over😎
I say it is not possible in a normal helicopter and for somebody having no flight experience (licence).

Nice fairytale, though😉

[RINKER]

Just talking about R22 and R44, I seem to remember the Poh stating if the left
Passenger was not a rated pilot then the duals had to be removed.

R

[Musician]

Originally Posted by rotarywise

Perhaps you are getting confused with the 'introductory flight' that may be conducted by the holder of an LAPL or PPL. [..] Have a look at para 4 of IN-2015/029

I looked that up, and found this further down the page:

9.6 Can the passenger operate the controls of the aircraft?

An introductory flight does not count towards the grant or issuance of a licence. If someone wishes to have a go at flying the aircraft they are advised to arrange a flying lesson at a Registered Training Facility or Approved Training Organisation.

Is that a "yes" or a "no"?


P.S.: "This Information Notice will remain in force until 31 August 2017."

[Ascend Charlie]

I have spoken to several observers who sit in the front about what they would do in the event of pilot incapacitation

In most cases, the pilot would slump forward onto the cyclic, and the aircraft would be 90 nose down before an observer could do much about it. And by then, he couldn't do much about it anyway, even if he was able to move the pilot off the controls long enough to try to fly it.

[John R81]

Originally Posted by Bell_ringer

Who would report it? The let-goer or the let-goee?
There is plenty of youtube footage of all sorts of illegal flying that goes unpunished.
If someone would care to volunteer some of their personal information and some supporting footage, then lets send it off to the relevant authority and see how it pans out.
Any takers?

No wonder Air Law is not enforced in the UK! We have an admission here that there is no investigatory capability (or desire) in CAA, and they just wait for people to "hand themselves in".


I assume the same is also true for UK Police; no wonder the crime rate is rising!!!




No...... Wait...... This from the CAA's own website: "The Civil Aviation Authority is tasked by the Department for Transport to investigate and prosecute breaches of aviation safety rules and some aviation related consumer protection and health and safety requirements"


In the last year:

• Ahmed Sajawal T/A Al-Karem Travel was fined in respect of 5 counts - of breaching Reg. 9, Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers' Licensing) Regulations. Good job he just "handed himself in".

• Christopher Kiley, prosecuted for flying in Class D airspace without ATC clearance. Didn't "hand himself in" and all the CAA had to go on initially was a Radar trace.

There are numerous examples of CAA using their investigatory powers, in every year. You can look-up the cases (they are public record). Evidence can include Youtube material or posts on sites like this one (a court can order disclosure of your real name) as evidence, etc.....


What is not specifically prohibited is allowed. I still cannot see a prohibition. The post from Musician tells a lot - you are gently advised against it. Perhaps it is "dumb" but it is not illegal.

[FlimsyFan]

Originally Posted by RINKER

Just talking about R22 and R44, I seem to remember the Poh stating if the left
Passenger was not a rated pilot then the duals had to be removed.

R

Remains the case, and applies equally to the R66

[Bell_ringer]

Originally Posted by John R81

No wonder Air Law is not enforced in the UK! We have an admission here that there is no investigatory capability (or desire) in CAA, and they just wait for people to "hand themselves in".


I assume the same is also true for UK Police; no wonder the crime rate is rising!!!

Not really, with their limited resources they don't exactly have a team of people trawling Youtube and facebook looking for badly behaving Brexitish subjects and launching prosecutions.
If the CAA did this the jails would be full of drone operators..
I seriously doubt either the regulator or the Police will do much unless a problem crosses their desk - and in the Police's case will generally do little about it.

[chopjock]

AC

In most cases, the pilot would slump forward onto the cyclic, and the aircraft would be 90 nose down before an observer could do much about it. And by then, he couldn't do much about it anyway, even if he was able to move the pilot off the controls long enough to try to fly it.

The point I am making is not that this would work, but the fact they were given control to "try it". Presumably an attempt at a controlled crash would be better than an inflight break up.

[[email protected]]

Teaching people to manipulate the controls of a helicopter in the cruise is relatively straight forward and, in a stabilised aircraft, teaching someone to hover isn't that much more difficult.

However, getting from cruise to hover and landing is usually where it goes wrong for the inexperienced.

I have taught many RAF rearcrew to fly (in the old days with single pilot and a navigator that was quite useful) and some were very competent.

However, we had an incident a few years ago when a helicopter pilot did slump across the controls and it took the co-pilot several hundred feet to recover - had it happened lower, they would have been toast.

In short, know your audience and consider carefully the implications of them suddenly putting in a random control input - a favourite is lowering the lever and pulling back on the cyclic in the hover!

Definitely not recommended in anything with Robinson on the placard!

[chopjock]

Interesting relevant article here:

NTSB takes control of Duke Life Flight helicopter crash investigation | News & Observer

"The remaining accidents were apparent one-offs. In one, the pilot of a copter belonging to the Pitt County Memorial Hospital suffered a stroke at the controls and lost the use of his right arm. A nurse on the crew helped him work the flight controls for an emergency landing at the Cherry Point Marine Corps base."

[homonculus]

In the UK a few years ago it was quite common for wives, girlfriends and mistresses to do 'the dead man's course' which was about 5 hours designed to allow them to take the controls and put it on the ground with no injury should the driver become incapacitated. Normally this was undertaken by an FI although a few people did teach their own partners.

Sadly my partner decided nothing less than a full license would do. This is not to be recommended. Nowadays I spend more time in the left hand seat paying the bills than I do driving!

[Ascend Charlie]

the pilot of a copter belonging to the Pitt County Memorial Hospital suffered a stroke at the controls and lost the use of his right arm. A nurse on the crew helped him

So, the nurse helped his right arm have a stroke? Ohhh.... Harvey Weinstein....