Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash
Simple question, how many professional pilots with potential pax on board either cancel flights due to bad weather or divert/return if encountering it?
Who determines the decision, pilot or company?
Who determines the decision, pilot or company?
Thread Starter
Having a look at the video. The best I can make out through my little iPad screen and $10 store bought reading glasses, and reading the assessment of others in this thread, is the R44 went nose down with a speed increase and then were recovered to a slow forward speed with associated blade noise. Then we have a view of a stabilised AH suggesting the pilot had stabilised his scan. Then the AH topples and.....
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=248_1499297836
Of interest, you don't need to be in the fog/cloud to get a similar 'experiance'. Many years ago i were mustering in a 300 with a fog layer just above the trees and an occasional drizel of rain. No dramas as plan A were to just land where i were in the paddock if the fog lowered. There i were just sitting above a small tree having a look around and whoosh... a cascading spiral of white mist at me rotor tips all around the chopper. The mist had a screw thread appearance for the first few feet below the tips. Didn't last long though it were itimitant so i transitioned my view straight down for reference. as soon as i moved the chopper the effect went away. For the new players to the game it is something to keep in mind.
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Last edited by Flying Binghi; 11th Jul 2017 at 04:02.
I agree 100% on the sentiment here, the accident pilot was totally responsible for the inevitable outcome. You just can't be doing that sort of thing in any helicopter, let alone a Robinson. Just don't even attempt your hand at it, it's just pointless doing so. Keep out of clouds in VFR helicopters.
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You shouldn't have to. What you need as an absolute minimum in such a dire situation is an aid to track towards (or away from), speed indication (ASI + VSI), and power indication. An IFR trained pilot should be able to fly all day like that, climb and descend, no AH required, but once you need to turn then you have absolutely nothing left in your favor. The really tricky part, apart from not flying into something, is getting out of the cloud. For that you need a procedure, and proper equipment, and if you had both right from the beginning, and the proper training and qualifications to use them, then you shouldn't have found yourself in such a sticky situation in the first place.
I agree 100% on the sentiment here, the accident pilot was totally responsible for the inevitable outcome. You just can't be doing that sort of thing in any helicopter, let alone a Robinson. Just don't even attempt your hand at it, it's just pointless doing so. Keep out of clouds in VFR helicopters.
I agree 100% on the sentiment here, the accident pilot was totally responsible for the inevitable outcome. You just can't be doing that sort of thing in any helicopter, let alone a Robinson. Just don't even attempt your hand at it, it's just pointless doing so. Keep out of clouds in VFR helicopters.
I doubt that very much. From a FW perspective I rely on the AI or Turn Co-ordinator in the event of AI failure in IMC with no autopilot (eg hand flying).
Complete lack of horizon makes me solely reliant on instruments, and the AI is a key one for me at least.
If a pilot gets disoriented even in the slightest he has no AI as reference to verify he is level..
Thread Starter
You wouldn't need an AI as an IFR heli pilot to fly straight and level or climb all day in solid IMC?
I doubt that very much. From a FW perspective I rely on the AI or Turn Co-ordinator in the event of AI failure in IMC with no autopilot (eg hand flying).
Complete lack of horizon makes me solely reliant on instruments, and the AI is a key one for me at least.
If a pilot gets disoriented even in the slightest he has no AI as reference to verify he is level..
I doubt that very much. From a FW perspective I rely on the AI or Turn Co-ordinator in the event of AI failure in IMC with no autopilot (eg hand flying).
Complete lack of horizon makes me solely reliant on instruments, and the AI is a key one for me at least.
If a pilot gets disoriented even in the slightest he has no AI as reference to verify he is level..
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http://www.heliweb.com/adventurer-ro...-crash-russia/
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I agree. Though i think the demo video linked earlier in the thread of that Russian chap covering up his main attitude instruments answered what is possible in a R44. What i note is different between the demo vid and the thread subject incident is the amount of turbulence the accident pilot encountered. IMHO, for the situation and pilot skills the AH (AI) were one of two main instruments - i.e., Hold it level and keep the rotor in the green...
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I agree. Though i think the demo video linked earlier in the thread of that Russian chap covering up his main attitude instruments answered what is possible in a R44. What i note is different between the demo vid and the thread subject incident is the amount of turbulence the accident pilot encountered. IMHO, for the situation and pilot skills the AH (AI) were one of two main instruments - i.e., Hold it level and keep the rotor in the green...
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Obviously a very talented pilot.
Human physiology means you need a reference to the horizon in order to orientate yourself - otherwise you are at the mercy of conflicting signals from the proprioceptive sensors (muscles, nerves etc - seat of the pants) and your semi-circular canals in the inner ears. no-one has a built in gyro but some are more prone to disorientation than others.
You might manage to stay straight and level for a short while in IMC without an AI (in an unstabilised helicopter) but any disturbance will eventually degrade your perception of the world and your position in space - then you will make bigger control inputs, usually in opposite directions, as your brain tries to establish a feedback loop. I believe that is what happened in the crash video where he goes from nose-down to nose-up, generating G, losing airspeed and eventually losing control totally.
Thread Starter
Looking again at the short video i noted the headset volume control units on the headset cables are hanging from the ceiling and are 'in shot' for most of the vid. Very little if any movement at all. The turbulence i perceived were from the hand held camera.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=248_1499297836
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
No, a lucky pilot whose luck ran out.
Human physiology means you need a reference to the horizon in order to orientate yourself - otherwise you are at the mercy of conflicting signals from the proprioceptive sensors (muscles, nerves etc - seat of the pants) and your semi-circular canals in the inner ears. no-one has a built in gyro but some are more prone to disorientation than others.
You might manage to stay straight and level for a short while in IMC without an AI (in an unstabilised helicopter) but any disturbance will eventually degrade your perception of the world and your position in space - then you will make bigger control inputs, usually in opposite directions, as your brain tries to establish a feedback loop. I believe that is what happened in the crash video where he goes from nose-down to nose-up, generating G, losing airspeed and eventually losing control totally.
Human physiology means you need a reference to the horizon in order to orientate yourself - otherwise you are at the mercy of conflicting signals from the proprioceptive sensors (muscles, nerves etc - seat of the pants) and your semi-circular canals in the inner ears. no-one has a built in gyro but some are more prone to disorientation than others.
You might manage to stay straight and level for a short while in IMC without an AI (in an unstabilised helicopter) but any disturbance will eventually degrade your perception of the world and your position in space - then you will make bigger control inputs, usually in opposite directions, as your brain tries to establish a feedback loop. I believe that is what happened in the crash video where he goes from nose-down to nose-up, generating G, losing airspeed and eventually losing control totally.
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Low time Robbie guy here. If you haven't tried it, it's not nearly as difficult as you think. For a commercial rating you need 5 hours under the hood or in an approved simulator. I did over half my time in an R44, at night just to minimize potential external cues. While more difficult than in a fixed wing, I did not by any means find it impossible, and was able to fly around reasonably well at the direction of my instructor, even shooting a couple of ersatz approaches (not ILS).
It's amazing how good your brain is at picking up little cues that you don't realize you're seeing. I've been flying and teaching in Robbies and Bells for 30 years and it's really scary to hear a low time guy say what you just said. In fact, I've complained that the 5 hours of IFR training for the commercial is counter productive for just this reason. What you should be learning is that if you go inadvertent IMC (especially at night) in a VFR helicopter... chances are very good that you are not going to survive the encounter. At night you probably have 15 seconds before you lose control. The 5 hours of hood training is just enough to make people overconfident. For my first 10 years of flying R22s I just assumed that if I went IMC I would die. It kept me safe, thinking that way.
I was training someone in an R44 for the commercial not too long ago and by the end of the 5 hours of hood time he was getting pretty cocky. I kept telling him that actual IMC isn't at all the same. You could tell he was pretty skeptical. I took him out over the water for an ILS and he was all over the sky as soon as he crossed the beach. It's actually pretty darn uncomfortable in a teetering system to be all over the sky (I'm thinking low gee) the way we were that day. It's not that he was trying to cheat... you just can't help it. Your brain is amazing at finding cues to what the aircraft is doing when you're wearing a hood.
Other story is the first time I flew IMC. I had been a CFII for a couple years, probably had a couple hundred hours of hood time, and I went out with my buddy in the SPIFR B206L3 I still fly. I think I gave him a pretty bad scare. For the first 10 minutes it was all I could do to keep the dirty side down. After a few minutes he says "how about we turn the autopilot on for a few minutes?". I gratefully did. I was shocked at how different it was from flying under the hood.
So, like crab says, don't think that when you enter IMC by mistake it's going to be anything like when you're under the hood (even at night). And, with a VFR R44 like the pilot in this video was flying, the attitude indicator looks tiny because it's further away than with an IFR panel. And, like several people said, there's a huge difference between going IMC as planned vs by mistake.
I only watched the short video, and of course I knew it was going to be bad but when the camera gave the out-the-front view, like someone else said: I knew they were toast.
Someone else mentioned the stress of doing weddings. Whenever I do weddings or Santa deliveries, I require they have a car standing by. That way I can always abort and they can still get to the function, even if a few minutes late. Takes a lot of stress off the decision making when you can say "hey, the worst case scenario is that they just take the limo".
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fwiw... I have about 1900 hours mostly fw, a current IR, and about 150 hours heli time. I was working on my CPL-H (I have a CPL-ASEL) and did the requisite 5 hours under the hood in an R44, mostly at night. I wouldn't be scared at the idea of flying an R44 in IMC, though it's just about impossible to imagine how it could happen.
I believe it's the case that you need an autopilot for heli IFR. For sure it's impossible to mess with charts, iPads etc the same way you can fixed wing.
One friend who was a LOH pilot, designated examiner and finally FAA examiner told me that if I lost the autopilot while IMC I should declare an emergency and have ATC read me the approach plate rather than stop the scan (and risk vertigo by looking down at the plate). In fact, lots of times when I'm IMC I hand fly for the practice, and I actually can use ForeFlight while flying, but I don't think I'd want to have to do it on a dark and stormy turbulent flight... it's nice to have the autopilot (but I'd actually rather have a second pilot!).
As for an experienced fixed wing IFR pilot dealing with inadvertent IMC, the main differences are that the helicopter doesn't have a trim airspeed so it's more work maintaining pitch, and the aircraft is much more responsive - offhand I would say that your scan needs to be 3-5 times faster in the helicopter than in the airplane, depending on the model of helicopter. Certainly an R44 would be a handful, and an R22... I wouldn't even want to think about it. (they're nimble to a fault). They have all the characteristics that make for a fun VFR machine and a lousy IFR machine - sort of like learning instruments in a Pitts Special, or Extra or something with very responsive controls, and not a lot of stability.
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I strongly agree. Part of the problem is the FAA. I recently read a good article about why a bunch of single engine helicopters were certified for IFR (like the SPIFR B206L3 I fly) back in the 80's, but not now. The gist of the article was that the FAA upped the requirements for instrumentation and mechanical failure robustness in an attempt to make things safer, and instead halted the production of IFR singles.
There is no question in my mind that if the FAA relaxed some regs so that the aircraft didn't need to be triple redundant (or whatever), and instead would allow a simple digital autopilot equipped single like the R44, B206, B505 to be certified IFR we would be much safer than we are now. And yes, some IFR routes and procedures and LZs like you described in your article would be nice too! (and at least we're finally, with WAAS, in a position to have privately certified IFR approaches - I know of at least one guy who has one to his house).
One could make an argument that with a couple AHRS on board, a G500H style panel, and a couple iPads running ForeFlight with synthetic vision, an R44 with an autopilot could be as safe as any other single engine IFR helicopter and would be a hell of a lot safer than flying VFR in marginal conditions.
Now and again there are rumors that Bell might certify the 407GX, and maybe the 505. I hope they do! Robinson, in my opinion, will never try for IFR certification of any of their helicopters. I hope I get proved wrong someday :-(
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I have read this thread with great interest. As an ex-military pilot, instrument rating instructor and QHI with nearly 1000 hours 'actual' in helicopters, I think that a few important points have been missed here:
1. Instrument flying proficiency is a perishable skill. If not current, even the most talented and experienced pilot will struggle to accurately fly a helicopter on instruments manually.
1. Instrument flying proficiency is a perishable skill. If not current, even the most talented and experienced pilot will struggle to accurately fly a helicopter on instruments manually.
We generally don't do much if any IMC flying during the winter (in Boston) because of ice. So, each spring we need to do some work to get current again. In just 3 months I'm rusty enough that I wouldn't launch IMC without a refresher.
If I'm rusty after 3 months, imagine a VFR commercial pilot who got 5 hours of hood time several years ago when he was trained!
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Robinson, in my opinion, will never try for IFR certification of any of their helicopters.
If I cannot fit through the door I never face that eventuality!
IMC in a Robbie.....shudder the thought!
A local company (Digital Equipment Corporation) had one
or Extra or something
If I'm rusty after 3 months, imagine a VFR commercial pilot who got 5 hours of hood time several years ago when he was trained!
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FF - that heliSAS is what would make all the difference. It is the idea of IMC in an unstabilised helicopter for a pilot who has never seen the inside of a real cloud before that is so abhorrent.
