Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash

[NickLappos]

Time to weigh in on this:

1) Airplanes passed through this same Mayhem-by-Air phase in the late 1920's, when crashes due to CFIT were more common than any other cause. Mandatory routes, IFR equippage and mandatory commercial IFR were the result and the accident rate plummeted.
2) Helicopter IFR procedures simply do not exist. I mean routes, approaches and departures from heliports and to heliports. Yes, we get to borrow airplane procedures, but actual helicopter IFR where the trip is done substantially on airways and to helicopter destinations is beyond our regulator's ability to understand.
3) All commercial helicopters should be IFR equipped, and able to file and fly their missions on helicopter airways and down helicopter approaches.
4) Blaming "Training" and "Pilot Error" for CFIT is a waste of time, as accurate as it is. Blame regulators who won't approve helicopter routes and approaches, operators too cheap to equip properly, and pilots who cannot see the forest for the trees.

Look at the new thread I posted for an article I wrote a decade ago about this sad and sickening problem, "Driving on the Planet Mongo"

[GoodGrief]

Originally Posted by NickLappos

3) All commercial helicopters should be IFR equipped, and able to file and fly their missions on helicopter airways and down helicopter approaches.

We have the hardest time selling twin hours to our customers as they don't want to pay for it.
Heck, the customers even complain about the higher landing fees of the 407 over the 206L (>2t vs. <2t).
With an L3 in the house the 407 gets flat feet and you want me to step up to IFR certified multi crew twins ?
Right, let's just close the doors...
May I remind everyone that an EASA MEIR cost in excess of $50k ? Good luck on crewing all those commercially operated machines.

[NickLappos]

alphanumeric, you are right, but if they cannot fly IFR on their job, they are effectively Robinsons. The need is for helicopter approaches to heliports, helicopter routes and the equipment.

GoodGrief, you, too, are right, but the cost of one fatal accident would equip the entire commercial fleet in most countries. The deaths do not burden the rate payers, in our lopsided system.

[SASless]

I will stick with Nick on this....as he has the background doing research on the topic....including flying the approaches and using the techniques and procedures he is advocating.

We have seen huge improvements in technology....which can allow us to improve how we operate.

Finding a way....and the Will to make that move forward is the stumbling block.

[ShyTorque]

2) Helicopter IFR procedures simply do not exist. I mean routes, approaches and departures from heliports and to heliports. Yes, we get to borrow airplane procedures, but actual helicopter IFR where the trip is done substantially on airways and to helicopter destinations is beyond our regulator's ability to understand.

In UK, what we really need first is some proper heliports, especially in our major cities.

[rotorspeed]

My goodness, there is a bit too much idealistic nonsense being talked about here I'm afraid.

Nick - first of all of course I have great respect for you but to say all commercial heli ops should be with IFR equipped aircraft and fly on heli airways and approaches is sorry, ridiculous. The cost inflating effects of this would surely wipe out over half the industry - you should know more than me. A vast amount of commercial heli ops can use VFR singles perfectly safely, and at much less cost. It just takes pilots to understand and respect the ops limits - as has to happen with IFR aircraft. And I say this as someone who has only flown IFR twins for the last 15 years plus.

And secondly it is ludicrous to say blame should be laid at regulators for not approving heli approaches and operators for not spending enough to equip helis with IFR kit etc. Frankly I think it is insulting to a whole load of very competent VFR pilots and VFR aircraft operators to consider they should not be doing what they do. And regulators who don't want to suffocate an industry. It is simply a case of pilots, operators and clients understanding and respecting the safe limitations of what the customer can afford. With a VFR single that means not being able to go sometimes. Simple. As with IFR twins - albeit less often.

Nick - competent pilots in airworthy helis don't crash them. We DO need to blame those that are not, and safeguard the cost effectiveness of the VFR heli industry. And the same applies to IFR twins. Most accidents are still caused by pilot error. Those that are not up to it should find another job. Which will protect the reputations of those that are, and competent operators too.

Shy - I normally agree with pretty much all you say, but whilst it would be great to have proper city heliports, even if we do get a few more, it won't make much of a dent in the accident rate - most happen where helicopters usually go - to ad hoc landing sites. It's not going to happen, at least on any scale. The vast majority of us can fly around perfectly safely to such ad hoc sites. It's not that difficult - and that's the virtue of a helicopter. Back to pilot competence......

[TIMTS]

To say that "Helicopter IFR procedures simply do not exist" isn't exactly correct.

There are plenty of Copter Rnav procedures that has nothing at all to do with borrowing airplane procedures.

Here's an example:

COPTER RNAV (GPS) 190 to Southampton Heliport (87N)

I certainly think we need more helicopter IFR procedures, and more support from ATC, there's very little accommodation for helicopters in the system. An example, again, is 87N. There's a time limit on the pad, and no departure procedure at all. So whilst we can get in, we can't always get out. And taking off without a release, even with a flight plan on file, is to chance an "unable" reply from TRACON.

[NickLappos]

It costs too much? Wow, let's take an example:
the US EMS industry uses about 850 helicopters. It has about 8 fatal crashes a year. Hmmmm, that's 1% of the fleet.
If a fatality costs about 10 million per person in total costs, and 3 people are in each helo, then the net cost for that slice of our industry is 8X3X10=240 million dollars. In one year that is $258,000 per aircraft.
Yep, IFR costs a lot, but so does not having IFR.

TIMTS, yes those are dedicated helo approaches, and it is the first crack toward what I am talking about. we just need a lot more, and with mins lower than what they have. And a lot more IFR equipped helos.

[nomorehelosforme]

This is all very sad,

As a passenger I have twice experienced situations where our pilot encountered, cloud, rain and fog. On each of these occasions the pilot simply said we have to fly around/away from this. Locations were St Lucia and Mauritius.

[Vertical Freedom]

thanks flopter, that's what I thought too
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well said OverHawk, most Pilot's who wear bars are too junior mentally lacking Airmanship enough to be donning the Gold & sadly the vast majority of goof ups are due to piss poor Airmanship yet are wearing the bars?
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Flying Bull, exactly
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great idea Nick, never gonna happen as Good Grief rightly stated. Can't see extreme altitude Mountain rescues ever taking off in twins on an IFR plan
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Gold bars have there place; royalty fanfare, prestigious event, or HeliAirline works. Most Helicopter work is dirty, dusty, grimy, in & our of muddy, dusty, remote H's scrambling about on rough rocky uneven terrain & is no place for a smart white poly shirt with spit polished shoes. Trekking boots, jeans, cotton shirts or a flight suit with a Helmet is a more suitable attire for this work environment. Anyone donning the Gold should have the right skills set, experience & Airmanship to match, I doubt a 200hr Robo Pilot is ready for the responsibility that goes with the bars (yet)

[PaPaPapamobil]

The IMC does not really frighten me as much as the low RPM horn that came on.... unfortunately i was not able to clearly see the rotor - and engine RPM indicator.
Did he experience an engine failure?

[tartare]

Years ago I flew on a USCG Dauphin down on the ice.
The pilot told me it was fitted with a system called JAWS, or something like that.
I think I remember him saying it could fly the helicopter in a pre-determined search pattern then bring it to auto-hold in a hover.
Is there no autopilot system that can hover a machine hands off in IMC?

EDIT - I note there are things like this - but I assume it can't be commanded to come to a hands off hover OGE in IMC?

[Flying Bull]

Originally Posted by tartare

Years ago I flew on a USCG Dauphin down on the ice.
The pilot told me it was fitted with a system called JAWS, or something like that.
I think I remember him saying it could fly the helicopter in a pre-determined search pattern then bring it to auto-hold in a hover.
Is there no autopilot system that can hover a machine hands off in IMC?

All up to the price you're willing to pay.
Nice new machines like the Airbus BK117D2 (H145T2) can have Autohover. Its called. GTC H - ground tractory hover
Depending on your speed and point choosen to hover above it takes its time but will eventuely hover.
But you will have to understand the system fully, without having an altitude in the AP upper modis first, the bird just holds the position- not the height....
But the bird has the "Maria help" button. Twice pushed up, The AP will be activated with present heading, altitude and speed - if below Vy I think it will accelerate to Vy.
So by using "Maria help" and GTC H after that, the bird will come to a stabile hover.
Thereafter you can reduce your altidude by feet by feet until your down.
Luckily we have also terrain and obsticle warning- cause with all the monitors in front and in the center console, where you have menues for everything, the Computer reminds you to look out again approaching ground or towers etc. when you forgot that programming the machine...
Cool for IFR, does all the Holding calculations for you, always intercepts at the right angle and so on.
But that's more mission management- not flying like in the old days.
The systems are cool for what they are designed for, but for pipeline/powerlinecontrol, sightseeing flights, spraying, lifting jobs and so on you don't need it.

[Twist & Shout]

Originally Posted by PaPaPapamobil

The IMC does not really frighten me as much as the low RPM horn that came on.... unfortunately i was not able to clearly see the rotor - and engine RPM indicator.
Did he experience an engine failure?

You should be scared of the IMC. That's what caused the low RRPM horn.
The Pilot was completely disoriented being devoid the visual cues he had relied on since his first ever flight, and did what almost always happens: responded desperately to inaccurate cues (accelerations and noises were all he had left). He almost certainly "pulled the collective to the roof" to arrest a perceived (and possibly real) decent, or when he glimpsed the world rushing up to kill him.

The thread drift is unreal.

IFR/IMC/Gold bars.
It would have been illegal and dangerous for a qualified IFR Pilot in a capable and certified IFR machine to have been where that foolish Pilot was. (In IMC, below LSALT and not on a published procedure.)

The simple fact is the Pilot chose to push on into totally unsuitable meteorological conditions and killed his pax. Criminal negligence. Ultimate price paid by all on board.

[Mel Effluent]

I have read this thread with great interest. As an ex-military pilot, instrument rating instructor and QHI with nearly 1000 hours 'actual' in helicopters, I think that a few important points have been missed here:

1. Instrument flying proficiency is a perishable skill. If not current, even the most talented and experienced pilot will struggle to accurately fly a helicopter on instruments manually.
2. Instrument flying currency affects capacity directly. I have seen (and been) a pilot who can manage to control the aircraft adequately in IMC, but struggle to communicate (or even speak in some cases) or make sensible decisions.
3. In my view, most helicopter accidents are not caused by lack of flying skill, but poor decision making. Giving a newbie a few hours on instruments in carefully controlled conditions may provide a confidence that is not warranted. I think that it would be a much better use of time and money to put the student in a suitable simulator, let him fly up a valley into IMC and see what happens. Then let him do it again and see if his decision changes.

By the way, for any FW pilot reading this thread, remember that unlike aeroplanes, helicopters are inherently unstable. This makes a huge difference in the effort required to control them (and not just in IMC).

[212man]

Originally Posted by PaPaPapamobil

The IMC does not really frighten me as much as the low RPM horn that came on.... unfortunately i was not able to clearly see the rotor - and engine RPM indicator.
Did he experience an engine failure?

I do hope you are not actually a licensed helicopter pilot! The mind boggles.....

[SuperF]

Originally Posted by Mel Effluent

1. Instrument flying proficiency is a perishable skill. If not current, even the most talented and experienced pilot will struggle to accurately fly a helicopter on instruments manually.
2. Instrument flying currency affects capacity directly. I have seen (and been) a pilot who can manage to control the aircraft adequately in IMC, but struggle to communicate (or even speak in some cases) or make sensible decisions.
3. In my view, most helicopter accidents are not caused by lack of flying skill, but poor decision making. Giving a newbie a few hours on instruments in carefully controlled conditions may provide a confidence that is not warranted. I think that it would be a much better use of time and money to put the student in a suitable simulator, let him fly up a valley into IMC and see what happens. Then let him do it again and see if his decision changes.

Mel, I 100% agree with you. I think that the IMC training that you get is a complete waste of time and money. You either need to do it properly and become and remain current, or else just stay away.

I have said time and again that they need to take the first I away from IIMC when you are talking day, VFR, non wartime flying. There is absolutely no reason to put yourself into IMC, in most cases. I have been close, years ago, never done it since, do not intend to get anywhere near that close to IMC again.

But i fly Day, VFR, non war, so the only reason to try to push on is generally to satisfy a client, or get-home-itis!! neither of those are a reason to die.

Nick, i have to disagree with you. for probably 80-90% of heli ops, which are Day, VFR, non-war and non-EMS, you do not need all those flash dials and gauges. If you have them installed, then one day you may be tempted to use them when you should simply be sitting on the ground waiting for better weather. Plus once you have all that stuff installed, then you have to keep it all in working condition $$$$, and you should really try to keep current in IFR, lots more $$$$$, all for the chance that one day it "MAY" save your live, if you are "STUPID" enough to fly into IMC. Just don't do it. go and land somewhere and have break. Sleep in the helicopter, wait it out.

Plus in most light helicopters, it actually takes away a reasonable amount of payload, which therefore reduces the safety margin on any specific operation, as well as increases the cost of every utility job to the client.

Obviously there are a few occasions when yes you need the ability to keep going, Offshore, Wartime, EMS, or some s#*t hole country where the locals will kill you if you land, are all good reasons to be prepared to keep flying through IMC. But most of us in the civil heli industry aren't flying in those conditions or industries.

[paco]

Mel - all good comments. I would also add that the stabilising surfaces don't kick in until around 45 knots on the average helicopter (very much higher on the Dauphin) so if you want a measure of controllability you have to speed up, which obviously is not part of the thinking process.

As a result, my own rule is that if I don't like what I see at 60 knots, I'm outta there.

Phil

[Flying Binghi]

Originally Posted by PaPaPapamobil

The IMC does not really frighten me as much as the low RPM horn that came on.... unfortunately i was not able to clearly see the rotor - and engine RPM indicator.
Did he experience an engine failure?

The AH had toppled before the horn went off.

I don't know what ultimately 'got' the pilot though it is educational to watch just how quickly the Artificial Horizon indicator (AH) went from showing roughly straight and level to what I'd say were toppled - About two seconds. It would take longer then two seconds to look at the GPS to work out where yer going.

For the non-IFR pilot next time yer near an aircraft with some IF dials in it have a seat. Look at the AH. Start counting, one thousand and one... look over to the GPS. See what yer want to see. Look back at the AH, ...one thound and two. The AH has toppled 90˚.... what yer going to do? Your VFR fixed wing instructor has given you Five hours on the dials perhaps, if yer lucky - slight negative G barrel roll perhaps and fly out of it... What yer going to do in a Robinson helicopter where negative G gives yer a tail docking.....

One thing that caught me initially, i unthinkingly took the camera view to be the level world. For the first couple of views i were scratching me head as to how the pilot got thrown sideways. After then noting the AH it dawned on me that the pilot likely wern't thrown 'sideways' as such. The helicopter, and camera, were just tumbling. So a reminder for me when on the instruments (fixed wing) to not trust the visual world, just watch the dials.





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[SASless]

So far the best comment has been "sit on the ground and wait for suitable weather".

That costs little, requires nothing in the way of hi-tech gizmo's.....yields zero risk of an accident..... but requires the use of the Pilot's Brain.....the weak link in this whole problem.