Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I don't subscribe to the suggestion that "This kind of thing can happen to anyone"
This happens far too frequently, and it's not limited to low-time pilots either, there are plenty of examples of experienced pilots who surely knew better ending up as another accident statistic. Clearly training is not the sole answer, there is just some odd facet of human risk-taking and failure to understand consequences of poor decision making that ensures accidents like this will keep happening.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also, I would agree, the R44 simulator that was available for the remaining time is, in comparison to the actual aircraft, "a bag of weasels"
Much more difficult to fly than the real thing.Note that none of this means that I ever intend to fly into IMC!
aa777888 - You are making a classic mistake in assuming that simulated IMC, even at night, is even half as disorientating as real IMC.
The first time in 'actual' IMC is what makes people realise how frigging dangerous it is if you are not trained or equipped to fly IMC for real.
All the time in the world under the hood will not prepare you adequately to use an IR in anger - you need to fly actual.
Perhaps this is one of the problems the helicopter world suffers from, too many are trained on non-IFR aircraft but do sim IF under the hood or in a simulator and assume therefore that IMC for real is much easier than it is. perhaps this is why so many are suckered into pushing the limits - because they think, erroneously, that they can handle the environment despite never experiencing it properly.
The first time in 'actual' IMC is what makes people realise how frigging dangerous it is if you are not trained or equipped to fly IMC for real.
All the time in the world under the hood will not prepare you adequately to use an IR in anger - you need to fly actual.
Perhaps this is one of the problems the helicopter world suffers from, too many are trained on non-IFR aircraft but do sim IF under the hood or in a simulator and assume therefore that IMC for real is much easier than it is. perhaps this is why so many are suckered into pushing the limits - because they think, erroneously, that they can handle the environment despite never experiencing it properly.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Sadly, the circumstances of the crash i.e. the Wedding, is anything but unique. This accident (below) was equally as tragic as it was avoidable, knowing the guy and his experience level didn't change anything.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bride...sh.-a060427705
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bride...sh.-a060427705
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope no one is thinking that I would ever attempt such a thing.
That said, while it is easy to understand why actual IMC is more dangerous then being under the hood, why is it more difficult? Serious question, as I've never, and don't desire to, operate a helicopter in actual IMC, so I can't and shouldn't find out for myself. Are you saying it's more difficult for an unpracticed, unrated pilot with inadvertent (or intentionally stupid) entry into IMC? Obviously that's the case. However, what about someone who is appropriately rated and current? One would think there would be little difference between real and simulated in the latter situation.
That said, while it is easy to understand why actual IMC is more dangerous then being under the hood, why is it more difficult? Serious question, as I've never, and don't desire to, operate a helicopter in actual IMC, so I can't and shouldn't find out for myself. Are you saying it's more difficult for an unpracticed, unrated pilot with inadvertent (or intentionally stupid) entry into IMC? Obviously that's the case. However, what about someone who is appropriately rated and current? One would think there would be little difference between real and simulated in the latter situation.
Much like being counted into an auto, you are prepared for what's coming. Stress levels are low and reactions are tuned.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,149
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
It's similar to the difference between a practice engine failure (where you pretend you're going to make the field, and the instructor pretends to believe you), and a real one. Having suffered three, I can confirm there is a difference!
Similarly, real IFR, with no-one next to you to drop the occasional hint, is a world away from the foggles.
There is no excuse for that video, or any others of a similar nature.
Phil
Similarly, real IFR, with no-one next to you to drop the occasional hint, is a world away from the foggles.
There is no excuse for that video, or any others of a similar nature.
Phil
I hope no one is thinking that I would ever attempt such a thing.
That said, while it is easy to understand why actual IMC is more dangerous then being under the hood, why is it more difficult? Serious question, as I've never, and don't desire to, operate a helicopter in actual IMC, so I can't and shouldn't find out for myself. Are you saying it's more difficult for an unpracticed, unrated pilot with inadvertent (or intentionally stupid) entry into IMC? Obviously that's the case. However, what about someone who is appropriately rated and current? One would think there would be little difference between real and simulated in the latter situation.
That said, while it is easy to understand why actual IMC is more dangerous then being under the hood, why is it more difficult? Serious question, as I've never, and don't desire to, operate a helicopter in actual IMC, so I can't and shouldn't find out for myself. Are you saying it's more difficult for an unpracticed, unrated pilot with inadvertent (or intentionally stupid) entry into IMC? Obviously that's the case. However, what about someone who is appropriately rated and current? One would think there would be little difference between real and simulated in the latter situation.
Having no clues- under a hood - to having lots of distracting clues - white and darker patches passing by in your periphal vision, giving you false impressions of attitudes ....
Thats the point, when the brain starts playing tricks on you and you have to rely on the instruments
Ever had this moving feeling, when a Train on an adjacent track starts to move, while your still standing?
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vienna
Age: 50
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not my personal account (no IFR rating), but
Krasnar, H. Flying helicopters. A companion to the PPL(H), p. 134f.
I found out the difference between simulated IMC and the real thing during instrument training for my CPL(H), which is of course more extended than that for the private pilot's licence. I was wearing foggles, and we had actually erected screens as well. I was quite certain that I could not see anything outside, and I was focusing completely on the instrument panel -- or so I truly believed. After a short period I began to get the sort of spatial disorientation discussed above that is so common in instrument flying; I felt as if I was in a steady right-hand turn, although my instruments told me that I was flying straight and level. It was annoying, but basically not a problem and I just carried on flying.
Then suddenly my perception of turning increased dramatically. I felt as though I was in a very steep turn, going almost round in circles. I began to get dizzy and nauseous, and I found it hard to concentrate. I told my instructor, and I said that if it continued I thought I'd have to stop. But then, just as suddenly, the feelings of turning lessened, and I assured him I was alright. My instructor was more put out than I had expected. '(Name)', he asked me sharply, 'Are you quite sure you can't see anything outside?'
I assured him that I was absolutely certain. I had only been able to see the instruments for the whole of the session ... or so I thought. He then told me that the short period during which I had felt so ill had been the exact time during which we had flown through a small cloud. I had had no idea of this, but it seemed that my body and senses had somehow perceived the difference between simulated and real IMC.
Pilots who have never flown in real cloud are often unaware of the dramatic difference between this and instrument training. Flying in cloud can be totally, completely disorienting. (...)
Then suddenly my perception of turning increased dramatically. I felt as though I was in a very steep turn, going almost round in circles. I began to get dizzy and nauseous, and I found it hard to concentrate. I told my instructor, and I said that if it continued I thought I'd have to stop. But then, just as suddenly, the feelings of turning lessened, and I assured him I was alright. My instructor was more put out than I had expected. '(Name)', he asked me sharply, 'Are you quite sure you can't see anything outside?'
I assured him that I was absolutely certain. I had only been able to see the instruments for the whole of the session ... or so I thought. He then told me that the short period during which I had felt so ill had been the exact time during which we had flown through a small cloud. I had had no idea of this, but it seemed that my body and senses had somehow perceived the difference between simulated and real IMC.
Pilots who have never flown in real cloud are often unaware of the dramatic difference between this and instrument training. Flying in cloud can be totally, completely disorienting. (...)
I am not ifr certified but have done a couple of hours or so of actual ... Always with an ifr pilot . When you have the knowledge that someone is next to you to keep you out of trouble it is easy !!! Climbing turns , descending turns ... All easy . I think it is because you are relaxed and can use 100% of your brain . When it happens all of a sudden and you don't have that back up you will instantly tend to freeze up , be behind the curve which requires larger inputs . Your available brain capacity will be 50% making simple things like remembering frequencies etc almost impossible . Slow right down and only fly to where you can see !! If you have already pushed too far then LAND . A lot of accidents still happen AFTER a 180 turn . I think every pilot should be forced to watch this harrowing video to hammer the message home . What a truly horrible flight it would have been even if they had arrived in one piece , so very bad PR for helicopters in any scenario . Don't do it !!!!!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1973. Under the hood. Beefer gently enters a 30 degree roll to the left and then flick rolls to 30 degree right (an over-correction - like we all do when we start to sweat).
Recovery : Believe the instruments ... believe the instruments.
The AI is level but I CANNOT shake the CERTAIN knowledge that we're upside down. Fought it for about 30 seconds then had to hand back the sticks in order to concentrate on not throwing up.
I went on to make a career out of creating films to be shown in motion simulators (as told in my latest book "Film Pilot"). When you set out to deliberately fool the human senses it's remarkable how easy it is to do.
Recovery : Believe the instruments ... believe the instruments.
The AI is level but I CANNOT shake the CERTAIN knowledge that we're upside down. Fought it for about 30 seconds then had to hand back the sticks in order to concentrate on not throwing up.
I went on to make a career out of creating films to be shown in motion simulators (as told in my latest book "Film Pilot"). When you set out to deliberately fool the human senses it's remarkable how easy it is to do.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of the posts here have, quite understandably, commented on the challenges of flying an R44 on instruments in IMC. Difficult though this would be, this is probably the least risky of this pilot's actions. A bigger risk he was subjecting everyone to was that of hitting something en route. Unless the images are very deceptive, there is no way he was flying at MSA in IMC, or anything like - I'd guess more like a height of around 300ft. Total Russian roulette as to whether he hit obstacles such as power lines, trees, hills, en route.
And most crazy of all was how was he going to land safely? I can't believe for one minute he had any idea of the vis and cloudbase at his destination and had any reasonable let down plan. No IMC let down reduces IAS to zero, so either he was clueless on technique here or the airspeed reduced inadvertently as his scan was beaten by stress as he got close to his site, which he'd quite probably know from GPS indication.
Controlling a helicopter in IMC with straightish and levelish flight is one thing. Having the capacity to consider all the other issues such as safe en route heights (think Wales AS355 accident) and how to perform an IMC let down procedure is quite another.
And most crazy of all was how was he going to land safely? I can't believe for one minute he had any idea of the vis and cloudbase at his destination and had any reasonable let down plan. No IMC let down reduces IAS to zero, so either he was clueless on technique here or the airspeed reduced inadvertently as his scan was beaten by stress as he got close to his site, which he'd quite probably know from GPS indication.
Controlling a helicopter in IMC with straightish and levelish flight is one thing. Having the capacity to consider all the other issues such as safe en route heights (think Wales AS355 accident) and how to perform an IMC let down procedure is quite another.
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One more thing. Shoulder harness. No way anyone survives if someone falls over the stick for whatever reason. Utterly daft not to wear it.
All too vivid evidence of Darwinism in action, such a shame the idiot took others with him.
All too vivid evidence of Darwinism in action, such a shame the idiot took others with him.
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an IR certified PPL(A) I will confirm the fact that simulated IMC is very different to proper IMC, particularly so when flying solo.
I have only flown a heli a few times under instruction (R44) but am curious if it is even possible for a very competent IR rated heli pilot to safely fly a non certified (for IMC) helicopter in these conditions?
As shown I have seen the youtube hero who made videos doing this, and is now dead, but surely it is russian roulette at the best of times? One thing goes south and the events chain can very quickly build up to catastrophic levels as shown in this tragic video.
Truly terrible - RIP to the people onboard.
I have only flown a heli a few times under instruction (R44) but am curious if it is even possible for a very competent IR rated heli pilot to safely fly a non certified (for IMC) helicopter in these conditions?
As shown I have seen the youtube hero who made videos doing this, and is now dead, but surely it is russian roulette at the best of times? One thing goes south and the events chain can very quickly build up to catastrophic levels as shown in this tragic video.
Truly terrible - RIP to the people onboard.
I have only flown a heli a few times under instruction (R44) but am curious if it is even possible for a very competent IR rated heli pilot to safely fly a non certified (for IMC) helicopter in these conditions?
fwiw... I have about 1900 hours mostly fw, a current IR, and about 150 hours heli time. I was working on my CPL-H (I have a CPL-ASEL) and did the requisite 5 hours under the hood in an R44, mostly at night. I wouldn't be scared at the idea of flying an R44 in IMC, though it's just about impossible to imagine how it could happen.
I hate flying under the hood - it's like some kind of sensory deprivation torture. I much prefer being inside the real thing, where I can look around and see everything inside the aircraft. IMC is scary if you think it is, but quite relaxing if you don't - though it does require 100% concentration to hand fly.
I believe it's the case that you need an autopilot for heli IFR. For sure it's impossible to mess with charts, iPads etc the same way you can fixed wing.
None of which changes the incredible stupidity of the pilot in this case, and the tragedy of killing three innocent people for no reason at all.
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you mean by "these conditions"? If you mean at 200 AGL in fog, I don't think anyone can do this "safely". I don't really see why a competent instrument pilot couldn't fly an R44 in IMC under proper IFR conditions, i.e. at a sensible altitude and prepared to fly an appropriate approach at the end of it. Of course it's not legal, and in a heli the excuses for inadvertent VFR into IMC are pretty thin since you can always stop before you enter the cloud.
fwiw... I have about 1900 hours mostly fw, a current IR, and about 150 hours heli time. I was working on my CPL-H (I have a CPL-ASEL) and did the requisite 5 hours under the hood in an R44, mostly at night. I wouldn't be scared at the idea of flying an R44 in IMC, though it's just about impossible to imagine how it could happen.
I hate flying under the hood - it's like some kind of sensory deprivation torture. I much prefer being inside the real thing, where I can look around and see everything inside the aircraft. IMC is scary if you think it is, but quite relaxing if you don't - though it does require 100% concentration to hand fly.
I believe it's the case that you need an autopilot for heli IFR. For sure it's impossible to mess with charts, iPads etc the same way you can fixed wing.
None of which changes the incredible stupidity of the pilot in this case, and the tragedy of killing three innocent people for no reason at all.
fwiw... I have about 1900 hours mostly fw, a current IR, and about 150 hours heli time. I was working on my CPL-H (I have a CPL-ASEL) and did the requisite 5 hours under the hood in an R44, mostly at night. I wouldn't be scared at the idea of flying an R44 in IMC, though it's just about impossible to imagine how it could happen.
I hate flying under the hood - it's like some kind of sensory deprivation torture. I much prefer being inside the real thing, where I can look around and see everything inside the aircraft. IMC is scary if you think it is, but quite relaxing if you don't - though it does require 100% concentration to hand fly.
I believe it's the case that you need an autopilot for heli IFR. For sure it's impossible to mess with charts, iPads etc the same way you can fixed wing.
None of which changes the incredible stupidity of the pilot in this case, and the tragedy of killing three innocent people for no reason at all.
By 'these conditions' I meant solid IMC (I wasn't referring to the low altitude, I meant at a sensible altitude).
I have over 300 hours IMC pic in FW so that is a known quantity to me. In a Heli like an R44 it seems a bad plan all round.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Murica.
Age: 45
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I went inadvertent IMC in the Bahamas, over the water, in a 206 with no AI or turn coordinator. We were flying a nurse and patient back to Nassau from a cruise ship, picked from an island. Weather was cavok with the exception of a line of rain ahead of us. It looked like light rain, I could clearly see Nassau, the horizon, even sun in the water on the other side. Being in a hurry I decided to fly through it, and the moment we entered the rain it was like flying into a waterfall...nothing but water to be seen. I transitioned to whatever instruments I had, and tried my best to keep altitude, airspeed and HSI from moving, making small inputs....left cyclic 1-2-3 center....right cyclic 1-2-3...aft cyclic...etc...talking to myself to try to keep calm. All this time it felt like I was sitting in a chair tumbling backwards. I was terrified and I had to fight to keep panic at bay. I made a conscious effort to not move anything but cyclic, and to trust instruments. What really freaked me out was blade slapping sounding like a steep turn, with nothing on the instruments showing a turn. No idea how long it lasted, but we came out into sunshine about 400' lower, and in a 15 degree right turn, slightly nose low.
I'm sure that without my ifr ticket I would have been just another statistic, and would have been another one of those "idiot pilots that killed his passengers", but that rain looked like I would be through it in 2sec tops. Easy to judge with hindsight of course. At present I fly S-76s, frequently IFR, and I'm still very leery of rain.
I'm sure that without my ifr ticket I would have been just another statistic, and would have been another one of those "idiot pilots that killed his passengers", but that rain looked like I would be through it in 2sec tops. Easy to judge with hindsight of course. At present I fly S-76s, frequently IFR, and I'm still very leery of rain.
Something that stands out to me in this thread is pretty much unilaterally IFR qualified Rotary Pilots are saying that this is crazy and even if you are qualified in IFR, flying a uncertified aircraft into these conditions will likely have only one ending.
Take heed VFR guys. It scares the hell out of me to hear guys saying I'd never let myself get into that situation however if I did I'd be able to get out of it as once upon a time I flew with a hood on and it wasn't that bad.
2 points worth noting, flying with a hood/screen on is not even close to flying in cloud. It always amazes me how the human body can adapt and interpret unusual data. There are a lot of external ques that are still available to you with a hood and or screen that your brain interprets subconsciously such as shading on the panel, light getting through the hood, temperature changes due to the sun position etc. Night might make this more difficult but it is still not the same.
Once early in my career (with a safety pilot of course) I shut my eyes as tight as I could and tried to control the aircraft. After 4 minutes I decided to stop as I was able to keep the aircraft the right way up at a similar height and direction with oscillations by interpretation of sounds and light plus warmth. Could I do this in a cloud? not a chance!
As Flying bull alluded to random shading and depth changes in cloud can be disorienting especially in the periphery while on instruments.
The other point that has already been made is that keeping the aircraft the right way up is only the first thing you have to do correctly in IMC. There is a reason that aircraft with autopilots but without flight directors require two pilot operation and that is hand flying even stabilised machines narrows the focus and increases pilot workload.
Having your instructor ask you to make a 500fpm climb with a rate one 180 deg turn where your focus is solely on that simple task is not particularly hard.
Accidentally (or in this case what appears to be intentionally) flying IMC where you need to get to a safe height,navigate, communicate, come up with a exit plan is a completely different story.
As a Single Pilot IFR am I happy to do this in a IFR aircraft? Well that would depend on where I was but probably but there is no way I'd intentionally get into the situation this guy was in. In a R44 I'd be very worried and IF I got out alive I'd thank my lucky stars.
I suspect this Pilot and perhaps the company culture has flirted with IMC successfully on previous occasions leading to progressive pushing in worse conditions. Eventually the limit was discovered.
If you are a VFR Pilot and can not see the horizon or the ground, you have gone to far period. Learn a lesson if you survive and do not push it as far next time. Have a plan as well, either descend if that is safe, reverse course and hope to break free of the cloud or climb to a safe height declare a mayday and request assistance from ATC if its in your area. There is a great sound clip where ATC saves a fixed wing guy who flew IMC and went into a spin however he was able to be talked down to a safe landing.
The link with the Russian guy was interesting. Not only is he flying an uncertified aircraft IMC (Which is ironic when one of the statements is "do not exceed your technical equipment") I also suspect he was flying in known icing conditions(It looked pretty cold to me and he was in the cloud). Also I can not remember if the 44 had a Pitot/Static heater but if it doesn't that just adds another level of stupidity to what he was doing.
Clearly this guy was good on the controls and therefore thought he knew what he was doing. Sad to see he took some Pax to the grave with him testing his limits.
Don't go making things up people, its just not worth it.
Take heed VFR guys. It scares the hell out of me to hear guys saying I'd never let myself get into that situation however if I did I'd be able to get out of it as once upon a time I flew with a hood on and it wasn't that bad.
2 points worth noting, flying with a hood/screen on is not even close to flying in cloud. It always amazes me how the human body can adapt and interpret unusual data. There are a lot of external ques that are still available to you with a hood and or screen that your brain interprets subconsciously such as shading on the panel, light getting through the hood, temperature changes due to the sun position etc. Night might make this more difficult but it is still not the same.
Once early in my career (with a safety pilot of course) I shut my eyes as tight as I could and tried to control the aircraft. After 4 minutes I decided to stop as I was able to keep the aircraft the right way up at a similar height and direction with oscillations by interpretation of sounds and light plus warmth. Could I do this in a cloud? not a chance!
As Flying bull alluded to random shading and depth changes in cloud can be disorienting especially in the periphery while on instruments.
The other point that has already been made is that keeping the aircraft the right way up is only the first thing you have to do correctly in IMC. There is a reason that aircraft with autopilots but without flight directors require two pilot operation and that is hand flying even stabilised machines narrows the focus and increases pilot workload.
Having your instructor ask you to make a 500fpm climb with a rate one 180 deg turn where your focus is solely on that simple task is not particularly hard.
Accidentally (or in this case what appears to be intentionally) flying IMC where you need to get to a safe height,navigate, communicate, come up with a exit plan is a completely different story.
As a Single Pilot IFR am I happy to do this in a IFR aircraft? Well that would depend on where I was but probably but there is no way I'd intentionally get into the situation this guy was in. In a R44 I'd be very worried and IF I got out alive I'd thank my lucky stars.
I suspect this Pilot and perhaps the company culture has flirted with IMC successfully on previous occasions leading to progressive pushing in worse conditions. Eventually the limit was discovered.
If you are a VFR Pilot and can not see the horizon or the ground, you have gone to far period. Learn a lesson if you survive and do not push it as far next time. Have a plan as well, either descend if that is safe, reverse course and hope to break free of the cloud or climb to a safe height declare a mayday and request assistance from ATC if its in your area. There is a great sound clip where ATC saves a fixed wing guy who flew IMC and went into a spin however he was able to be talked down to a safe landing.
The link with the Russian guy was interesting. Not only is he flying an uncertified aircraft IMC (Which is ironic when one of the statements is "do not exceed your technical equipment") I also suspect he was flying in known icing conditions(It looked pretty cold to me and he was in the cloud). Also I can not remember if the 44 had a Pitot/Static heater but if it doesn't that just adds another level of stupidity to what he was doing.
Clearly this guy was good on the controls and therefore thought he knew what he was doing. Sad to see he took some Pax to the grave with him testing his limits.
Don't go making things up people, its just not worth it.