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Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash

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Bride Killed in Helicopter Crash

Old 7th Jul 2017, 10:28
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hughesy View Post
Poor bugger had plenty of chances to lower the lever, get back into VMC and turn around.
I don't think we know what conditions the "poor bugger" aka stupid arse launched into so that may have been true in earlier stages of the flight but from what we saw on the video I don't think there was any VMC below. Edit... Thanks BR, I see now from the longer vid that launch was happy and in good conditions but the agitation of the pax is very high indeed as the clag develps. I reckon he was not much above treetop height all the way with just the barest of glimpses of the ground very close below. There was barely any delay between the horn and the first impact - and no clear air seen at all.
Look too at the body language of the two in the back. They are both highly agitated and peering intently steeply downwards, the fella then looks intently forwards too as though looking for something to see but both are clearly very uncomfortable. The helo makes a turn (rotor clatter increases) and he flattens himself ahainst the bulkhead looking downright scared, this is clearly a white-knuckle ride. The photog pulls a big round-eye look before smiling a bit unconvincingly too.
On full screen at slow speed (first video) from 1:35 the fella in the back flattens against the bulkhead - something has scared him again - the camera swings onto the panel showing a very steep turn right (45' bank or so) with a lot of nose down, pilot rolls level but ignores the pitch which wavers and gets to maybe 15, 20' nose down before he snatches a recovery which rapidly develops into a 60'left climbing turn, then nothing but blue on the AI, horn, pilot falls forward, (probably inverted by then) impact.

That video should be shown to every helo student to illustrate why you don't fly unauthorised IMC. Gruesome stuff.

Last edited by noflynomore; 7th Jul 2017 at 10:38.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 10:32
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by noflynomore View Post
I don't think we know what conditions the "poor bugger" aka stupid arse launched into
If you look at the longer video on live leaks you can see they lifted in good conditions and it deteriorated enroute.
There were plenty of opportunities to turnaround before he completely ran out of options.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 10:48
  #23 (permalink)  
Hughesy
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Yeah in the start you could see the ground quite often, enough im sure to dump the lever and go clear.
 
Old 7th Jul 2017, 14:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Far from being a "poor bugger" this pilot was being absolutely moronic. Murderously so, frankly. He was hand flying an unstabilised machine in IMC at just over tree top height. There was absolutely no excuse - he took off in clear VMC weather and pressed on with the weather progressively deteriorating until he was in pretty much solid IMC. Others might know better, but it seems perhaps that the final LOC came when he lost what stability he had trying as he slowed to find/descend/land at his site. But clearly it was an accident waiting to happen if ever we saw one. All the worse because his actions increasingly terrified his passengers on what was to have been one of the best days of their lives.

I've long thought obtaining a pilot's licence should include some kind of test or qualifications to demonstrate reasonable intelligence - which was clearly lacking here. No one would expect to have a brain surgeon operate on them without having previously demonstrated a high level of intelligence and a pilot can kill his customers as easily. When conditions get different and challenging, it is the intelligence to deal with them sensibly (as well as training and experience of course) that often determines whether the result is a fatal accident or not.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 14:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Sickening...
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 15:07
  #26 (permalink)  
Hughesy
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What I mean by "poor bugger" is he got himself into a situation that would have been terrifying.
IT can happen to anyone of us, and if you say it can't then your bullshitting yourself, or have never worked in an area where the weather can change in a blink of an eye. It has and will catch even the most cautious, intelligent and experienced pilots out.
It can happen with client pressure, personal pressure.
There has been a lot of inadvertent IMC accidents.

We don't know the whole story, just the end.
The weather at departure and destination could have been perfectly fine. Enroute he encountered some poor weather, with client pressure to get there " lets go a little bit further", its ok so far just a bit worse then I was expecting "I really should back but the weather is meant to be good at site"
Little bit further and boom, IMC. Freaking out he may have got himself completely in cloud and before he knew it he was completely stuffed. The way he was flying his gps he was doing the best he could. Given the dire situation.

These are my thoughts only.

He may have had tons experience, he may have been a low time guy.
Its a lesson for everyone here, low time and high time. if you VFR stay away from cloud. Leave the IMC flying to the IFR pilots.
It much nicer enjoying the scenery then white.

The poor bugger, and I use that term cos inside he would have been panicking.

Worst video i have seen, as above I agree. Sickening.
 
Old 7th Jul 2017, 15:47
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Bloody hell...
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 16:04
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Classic crm lecture for Randy Mains...
I'll guess less than 500 hrs and no IR, so sad...
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 17:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Regardless of his flight experience or IR qualifications, IMC and unstabilised Helicopters do not mix.

LZ
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 18:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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But no N Sea pilot, or any even half competent new PPL would slow to a zero-airspeed hover on instruments, would they? No wonder he lost it. This is straight out of the "But why can't you just hover and land when the weather gets bad?" question we've all been asked by members of the public, 'cept this time it was a "pilot" who actually dunnit. It will be interesting to see his qualifications and those of the charterer.
No way was this "inadvertent" IMC, we saw it get worse and worse and he didn't turn back. This was terminal pressonitis that even his pax could see was bloody dangerous.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 20:40
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by noflynomore View Post
I don't think we know what conditions the "poor bugger" aka stupid arse launched into so that may have been true in earlier stages of the flight but from what we saw on the video I don't think there was any VMC below. Edit... Thanks BR, I see now from the longer vid that launch was happy and in good conditions but the agitation of the pax is very high indeed as the clag develps. I reckon he was not much above treetop height all the way with just the barest of glimpses of the ground very close below. There was barely any delay between the horn and the first impact - and no clear air seen at all.
Look too at the body language of the two in the back. They are both highly agitated and peering intently steeply downwards, the fella then looks intently forwards too as though looking for something to see but both are clearly very uncomfortable. The helo makes a turn (rotor clatter increases) and he flattens himself ahainst the bulkhead looking downright scared, this is clearly a white-knuckle ride. The photog pulls a big round-eye look before smiling a bit unconvincingly too.
On full screen at slow speed (first video) from 1:35 the fella in the back flattens against the bulkhead - something has scared him again - the camera swings onto the panel showing a very steep turn right (45' bank or so) with a lot of nose down, pilot rolls level but ignores the pitch which wavers and gets to maybe 15, 20' nose down before he snatches a recovery which rapidly develops into a 60'left climbing turn, then nothing but blue on the AI, horn, pilot falls forward, (probably inverted by then) impact.

That video should be shown to every helo student to illustrate why you don't fly unauthorised IMC. Gruesome stuff.
Holy

On the short video, at 0:40, it looks like 90KN, max. MP, going up at 1000FPM. Then between 0:40 and 1:40 it looks to be a roller coaster ride. When the panel is next visible at 1:40 now it looks like 0KN, 22" MP, VSI +1000FPM?, AH all over the place.

Gruesome stuff, indeed.
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 22:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hot_LZ View Post
Regardless of his flight experience or IR qualifications, IMC and unstabilised Helicopters do not mix.

LZ
Hmm, just help me out, where does a Bo105 has a stabilisation?
Can't remeber one- only a trimming system.
But I got my IFR rating on BO105.
It was work - hard work in cumulus, but it worked.
And I know an operator, who had his pilots doing approaches (saw it only in the SIM), AP and SAS off in an EC155 - "cause they need to be able, in case both systems quit.... "
IFR is easier with a stabilised helicopter- but what really counts is your scan, trust in the instruments, early corrections, so they stay smal and you don't have to move your controls to much....
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Old 7th Jul 2017, 23:56
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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But still... they prefer fresh pilots to pilots with 2000 flight hours in AS332 like me. Yeah, I know, I have NOT the R-44 type rating!!!
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 04:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Low time or forged high time most assuredly. Just from the simple fact that he blew so many chances to reacquire references. Plus the fact that you don't fly like that for long before Darwinism catches up. An anxiety/machismo driven nightmare.

It's fun to call the guy a moron and say I would never fly in those conditions, but as mentioned earlier you fly for long enough you're going to get caught out. It would be nice to think the guy could of been mentored into the "weather, appropriate speed, hoge power, fuel, daylight , landing spots available" game but chances are his training consisted of a check mark on a training checklist. "You fly into imc you pull a 180 duh! And don't fly in cloud or below a mile viz." Like it's that easy. Just a vertical curtain you fly into and out of.

This case makes me think of kinetic and potential energy as important decision tools in your imc bag of tricks. After immediately going imc he had the chance to either slow up and descend gently , yes possibly into the trees, to become a tangled mess. Or climb for the heavens to honor the stiff wing gold bars on his epaulettes gaining time and altitude and like pissing your pants a sense of relief. Then having to convert all that altitude into airspeed (both vertical and horizontal ) only to have to figure where the ground could possibly be and which way is up all over again if god doesn't part the skies for you. The higher energy involved guaranteeing a smoking hole over the tangled mess.

Please do have a plan and stick to it.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 07:17
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Tragic

Just tragic, very tragic
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 07:46
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Just tragic, very tragic
A lot of dice rolling goes on.

https://video.buffer.com/v/5936153c7...ampaign=buffer



And who said you can't do IMC in a R-44 - he later killed himself and two pax doing just this in a R-66.


Last edited by megan; 8th Jul 2017 at 07:57.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 09:17
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alphanumeric View Post
Hand flying an EC155 in IMC (with AP out and/or SAS out) is a whole lot easier than an R44. The R44 is incredibly unstable in comparison.
I guess, you have no experience flying an EC 155 AP AND SAS off - do you?

It's covered in Part 3 - Emergencies - with a run on landing recommended, cause hovering might not be possible.....
Thats incredobly more stable than an R44? I doubt it.....
Nearly did a barrel roll the first time the instructor cut off both systems.... "F..... twitchy" and nothing to compare with any other helicopter I have flown (without stabilising by design - or switched off)
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 10:44
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Is the 155 significantly different to the 365? The 365 is very manageable AP out - far better than a Gazelle.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 11:21
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Many people commenting here... and many missing the point.

The problem is not in the helicopter but in the pilot.

I don't know if the R44 is legaly certified for IFR, but anyway an IFR RATED pilot can fly safely (legally or not) any helicopter in foggy weather if it is equipped with attitude indicator, altimeter, variometer, anemometer and compass. Theoretically you should automatically change to IFR rules but even if you still consider yourself in VFR (which is cuestionable, because you are not relying on your eyes to guide the flight) you need the help of the "five basics". If you have not experience with instrumental flight and you get caught in an IMC situation and you fail in an inmediate return to VMC, you are almost done, no matter how "stable" your helicopter is.
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Old 8th Jul 2017, 11:47
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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As regards the 155

AP and SAS out - in VMC it's very manageable indeed including hovering and landing. I've practiced it on many occasions. (Yes I know what the checklist says about a running landing but it's simply not necessary).

In IMC it's certainly harder work (I've only done it simulated in the helicopter as I'm not foolhardy enough to pickle out the AP and SAS in IMC). SAS only is very manageable with sole reference to instruments as long as you keep your scan going. SAS out is effing hard work but it's manageable at the correct speed.

The Simulator - It's a bag of weasels in comparison to the actual helicopter. AP and SAS out in IMC is a b!tch and in no way representative of how the helicopter handles. (Having said that I can usually survive it despite the best endeavours of the Sim driver).

As for the accident we're talking about...

I don't subscribe to the suggestion that "This kind of thing can happen to anyone"

This kind of thing can only happen to someone who flies beyond their own and their aircraft's limits. Yes we can all end up in circumstances where we are under pressure but that's when the Professional bit of you has to stand up and say "No".

No doubt there will be those who will pounce on me and start with the "You've clearly never been in that kind of situation yourself"... No I have not because I've said "No" lot's of times. I've been placed in horribly pressured situations with red faced passengers screaming at me and poking me from the cabin but I still say "no". I've also got myself into crappy weather and turned around later than I might have done but I've never boxed myself into a situation where I was committed to IMC in an aircraft that could not do it.

This video needs to be shown to all pilots, especially those of VFR only machines and those without instrument ratings.

There also needs to be an acceptance by our industry that this kind of [email protected] just is not acceptable. The cowboys that do this should be sacked rather than congratulated for getting the job done.

I remember turing back in a two crew IFR rated machine and passing a single pilot public transport R44 (with a non IFR pilot) with three pax going the way I had just abandoned. I mentioned it to his Chief Pilot a few days later - Not interested. I mentioned it to a CAA flt Ops inspector - Not interested.

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