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HNZ wins SAR in Oz

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HNZ wins SAR in Oz

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Old 20th Jan 2018, 20:39
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
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And the copy of the ATSB report into the winching incident is now released.....

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...r/ao-2017-095/
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Old 20th Jan 2018, 22:54
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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What would cause this equipment to break.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 10:53
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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The weak link in a hi-line is designed to do exactly that - break - so that any entanglement or snagging doesn't put an undue load on the hoist cable and snap the wire or damage the housing/drum or even pull the hook off the wire.

The fact that this one recoiled towards the rotor isn't unusual, we had one that did go through the rotor after the hook itself snagged a boat rail and then came free under tension.

This incident would be considered a Normal Operating Hazard for military SAR.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 13:19
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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we had one that did go through the rotor after the hook itself snagged a boat rail and then came free under tension.
and another time, at band camp....😴
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 14:35
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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If I could be bothered, I'd link to the DASOR for it but it happened to a Mk3A Sea King from Wattisham about 8 years ago on a routine training sortie. I wasn't involved but was the Sqn Trg Off.

The aircraft was landed safely without any undue vibration apparent and the extent of the damage was only realised on shutdown.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 20:54
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Wouldn't you expect there to be a much lower recoil from a weak-link breaking than a hook snagging and releasing though?
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Old 22nd Jan 2018, 04:54
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Our navy lost a Wessex while doing a personnel transfer to a destroyer. Seaman clipped the hook to a guard rail with the inevitable break causing the cable to fly up and tangle about the head resulting in a ditching. Ship ran over the aircraft in an attempted recovery.
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Old 22nd Jan 2018, 05:32
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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That's horrendous Megan, poor sods

PhilJ - it's probably a compromise, like so many things in life, a weaker weak-link would break too often and make the rescues more difficult not less but I have had hi-lines part several times without such a recoil - just luck of the draw I expect.
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Old 22nd Jan 2018, 17:31
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The weak link in a hi-line is designed to do exactly that - break - so that any entanglement or snagging doesn't put an undue load on the hoist cable and snap the wire or damage the housing/drum or even pull the hook off the wire.

The fact that this one recoiled towards the rotor isn't unusual, we had one that did go through the rotor after the hook itself snagged a boat rail and then came free under tension.

This incident would be considered a Normal Operating Hazard for military SAR.
Normal operating hazard YES. That much hook rebound from the tension of a 90lds weak link parting NO. I suspect the link did not function correctly hence the buckle breaking instead which must have happened at more than the rated 90lbs.
After all crab most UK mil and Civi weak links are 150lbs breaking strain and even that does not cause the violent rebound seen in this incident.
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 07:29
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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I missed the following section on my first read of the report

"The operator inserted a 300 ft line into a hi-line bag that was advertised as either a stand-alone
item, or fitted with a 75 ft line. In addition, the hi-line bag was a sausage shaped bag with a narrow
throat relative to the amount of line inserted. Therefore, when assembled, the hi-line equipment
presented an increased risk for restrictions during a hi-line evolution and the equipment was no
longer fit-for-purpose."

But this doesn't explain the recoil from a wire that should have only been exposed to around 40kgs of tension..
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 07:41
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the rebound is explained by the angle from the hoist - if the aircraft climbs to deploy the hi-line then the angle is steep and the hook has a long way to go vertically to reach the rotor.

If, on the other hand, the aircraft is moved laterally as the hi-line is deployed, the vertical distance is much lower - ISTR the report mentions the winch wire being snatched from the winchop's hand - that would correlate with the hi-line snagging and then parting.

Or it could well be a problem with the hi-line itself or a combination of the two issues.
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 08:11
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Had that issue elsewhere that despite the ops manual description and illustration certain winchops insistence of deploying the highline and remaining 1 unit at most from the overhead with the strain vertically as opposed to offsetting laterally giving me more of a chance to see what’s happening etc. Like banging your head against a wall....
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 10:22
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hedski View Post
Had that issue elsewhere that despite the ops manual description and illustration certain winchops insistence of deploying the highline and remaining 1 unit at most from the overhead with the strain vertically as opposed to offsetting laterally giving me more of a chance to see what’s happening etc. Like banging your head against a wall....
Very true Hedski...
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 13:55
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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If you are not visual with what is happening on the deck/cliff then that rather defeats the object of the high line.
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 14:21
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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That is where some winchops misunderstand the object which is to get the pilot visual - they think that as long as they can see, that is all that matters without considering the pilot's references.
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Old 25th Jan 2018, 22:37
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Said winchops were/are sadly part of a self perpetuating self congratulating corps thinking they are as knowledgable and experienced or more so than those elsewhere who actually are and refuse to listen. The old “we’ve always done it that way...” scenario. Although in the corps to which I refer the same applies to quite a few pilots. And so endeth the thread creep.

Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
That is where some winchops misunderstand the object which is to get the pilot visual - they think that as long as they can see, that is all that matters without considering the pilot's references.
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Old 26th Jan 2018, 09:15
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Wherever I have worked in SAR a high line technique requires that the pilot flying has visual contact with winching events. The Winchop requests 'permission to winch' from the PF before doing so. If the PF does not have the required visual references then it is a simple matter of saying no until in the correct position.
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Old 26th Jan 2018, 13:58
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, but in this situation, the winching of the crew to the deck had already been completed and they were moving laterally away from the boat to the hi-line datum - the pilot would have been unsighted until clear of the boat with the hi-line deployed. It was during this manoeuvre that it all went 'Pete Tong'.

The winchop was already winching the cable (and hi-line) in so no extra permissions to give
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Old 2nd Feb 2018, 22:40
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Perhaps the rebound is explained by the angle from the hoist - if the aircraft climbs to deploy the hi-line then the angle is steep and the hook has a long way to go vertically to reach the rotor.

If, on the other hand, the aircraft is moved laterally as the hi-line is deployed, the vertical distance is much lower - ISTR the report mentions the winch wire being snatched from the winchop's hand - that would correlate with the hi-line snagging and then parting.

Or it could well be a problem with the hi-line itself or a combination of the two issues.
I’m happy to see we can agree on some things Crab.

The hi-line snagged and as it came taut the hook was moving upward. The weak link parted with almost no load which allowed the hook to continue its upward trajectory. Momentum is a powerful force.
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 08:44
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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So, HNZ All Weather SAR is up and running...
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