Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland
Knowing the terrain well, the pilots problems would have also involved turbulance plus low cloud base. Why he chose to take a short cut is another matter.
Mountain flying is an art not practiced by low level pilots.
Mountain flying is an art not practiced by low level pilots.
Mountain flying isn't an art - you don't caress the slopes or ridges. You don't surf the mountain waves. You don't bask in the rotors.
It is an exact science. It's all about calculating speeds, heading heights downdraughts, demarcation lines......
It's true then Jay Sata - you do talk rubbish, it seems.
It is an exact science. It's all about calculating speeds, heading heights downdraughts, demarcation lines......
It's true then Jay Sata - you do talk rubbish, it seems.
Perhaps this explains it better.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...ve_turbulence/
Mountain wave and associated turbulence
In Australia, mountain waves are commonly experienced over and to the lee of mountain ranges in the south-east of the continent. They often appear in the strong westerly wind flows on the east coast in late winter and early spring.
Mountain waves are a different phenomena to the mechanical turbulence found in the lee of mountain ranges, and can exist as a smooth undulating airflow or may contain clear air turbulence in the form of breaking waves and 'rotors'. Mountain waves are defined as 'severe' when the associated downdrafts exceed 600 ft/min and/or severe turbulence is observed or forecast.
'Breaking waves' and 'rotors' associated with mountain waves are among the more hazardous phenomenon that pilots can experience. Understanding the dynamics of the wind is important in improving aviation safety.
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https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...ve_turbulence/
Mountain wave and associated turbulence
In Australia, mountain waves are commonly experienced over and to the lee of mountain ranges in the south-east of the continent. They often appear in the strong westerly wind flows on the east coast in late winter and early spring.
Mountain waves are a different phenomena to the mechanical turbulence found in the lee of mountain ranges, and can exist as a smooth undulating airflow or may contain clear air turbulence in the form of breaking waves and 'rotors'. Mountain waves are defined as 'severe' when the associated downdrafts exceed 600 ft/min and/or severe turbulence is observed or forecast.
'Breaking waves' and 'rotors' associated with mountain waves are among the more hazardous phenomenon that pilots can experience. Understanding the dynamics of the wind is important in improving aviation safety.
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Jay
Maybe you should stick to the private pilot forum and keep bashing TCT.
Ain't no art mountain flying in Canada, it's just another day in the office, as long as you have the knowledge a la mountain flying. Maybe you should try long lining drills, seismic , logging in the Rockies. A skill for sure but not an art. Like I said just another day turning and burning.....maybe you can sign up for Canadian Helicopters mountain course in Penticton, probably the best in the World. You might learn a thing or two...
Or maybe get a hobby, something like angling, you seem pretty good at fishing!!!
Maybe you should stick to the private pilot forum and keep bashing TCT.
Ain't no art mountain flying in Canada, it's just another day in the office, as long as you have the knowledge a la mountain flying. Maybe you should try long lining drills, seismic , logging in the Rockies. A skill for sure but not an art. Like I said just another day turning and burning.....maybe you can sign up for Canadian Helicopters mountain course in Penticton, probably the best in the World. You might learn a thing or two...
Or maybe get a hobby, something like angling, you seem pretty good at fishing!!!
Last edited by newfieboy; 7th Apr 2017 at 01:01.
Sometimes, pilots do the most 'out of character' things. I've lost a few friends over the years, and I've pondered the same thing.
It is an exact science. It's all about calculating speeds, heading heights downdraughts, demarcation lines......
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Mountain wave and rotor
Jay Sata and Thomas Coupling, and other rotorheads, or power pilots who get nervous flying in mountains, may I recommend a trip to the Deeside Gliding Club in Scotland to broaden your horizons? (Have a look at their website!) Or visit one of the French clubs that can introduce you to Alpine soaring....
No, we don't fly IFR in gliders very often, or not on purpose, but we do use ridge lift and mountain wave to maintain flight, and so acquire with experience a pretty good idea of where is lift and where is sink! And where is rotor....relative to wave bars....clouds that will mark the rising air on the windward side, and the horrible sink or rotor on the lee side of the bar. The wave bar cloud formation, usually saussage shaped, is distinguished by not traveling with the wind, but remaining fairly stationary over the ground, DOWNWIND from the mountain ridge that has created the wave bar. I like to ask beginners to think of a rock in the river, and the ripple that forms DOWNSTREAM from the rock. It (and the wave cloud) will remain fairly stationary and usually has at least three wave bar formations, possibly more in succession less powerful.
When the usual wind from the west comes up against a mountain range, it moves up the slope, creating what we glider pilots call ridge lift. Conversely, on the other side you will find sink, and turbulence. But a strong steady wind from the west will also produce mountain wave on the downwind side of the mountain ridge. So a knowlege of general conditions and prevailing wind direction can be useful.
Glider pilots have achieved over 50,000 feet in mountain wave (with oxygen!!) I managed to get to 20,300 feet at Deeside. That was enough for me.
No, we don't fly IFR in gliders very often, or not on purpose, but we do use ridge lift and mountain wave to maintain flight, and so acquire with experience a pretty good idea of where is lift and where is sink! And where is rotor....relative to wave bars....clouds that will mark the rising air on the windward side, and the horrible sink or rotor on the lee side of the bar. The wave bar cloud formation, usually saussage shaped, is distinguished by not traveling with the wind, but remaining fairly stationary over the ground, DOWNWIND from the mountain ridge that has created the wave bar. I like to ask beginners to think of a rock in the river, and the ripple that forms DOWNSTREAM from the rock. It (and the wave cloud) will remain fairly stationary and usually has at least three wave bar formations, possibly more in succession less powerful.
When the usual wind from the west comes up against a mountain range, it moves up the slope, creating what we glider pilots call ridge lift. Conversely, on the other side you will find sink, and turbulence. But a strong steady wind from the west will also produce mountain wave on the downwind side of the mountain ridge. So a knowlege of general conditions and prevailing wind direction can be useful.
Glider pilots have achieved over 50,000 feet in mountain wave (with oxygen!!) I managed to get to 20,300 feet at Deeside. That was enough for me.
Mary - I feel you completely miss the mark with your post which comes across as rather condescending.
You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).
I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.
BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.
TOTD - agreed, I have flown with many very experienced mountain pilots and there is definitely some 'art' involved especially when considering the modifying effects on the local winds that the features upwind of the one you are flying around have.
You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).
I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.
BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.
TOTD - agreed, I have flown with many very experienced mountain pilots and there is definitely some 'art' involved especially when considering the modifying effects on the local winds that the features upwind of the one you are flying around have.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Mary - I feel you completely miss the mark with your post which comes across as rather condescending.
You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).
I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.
BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.
You will find that TC and others here are not 'nervous' about flying in the mountains. Your experience of mountain waves and ridge lift is nothing like having to operate IN the mountains, especially on bad weather days (or nights).
I suspect that if you were taken into the mountains in a helicopter in 20 plus kts of wind you would not enjoy it at all.
BTW guess what subjects are covered in helicopter met lessons both during basic and advanced training and in QHI training (TC is an ex-QHI) - yes mountain waves, rotors, up and downdraughts, anabatic and katabatic winds etc etc etc.
The Original Whirly
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Mary, as others have pointed out, helicopters are not gliders. Helicopter PPLs should go on a mountain flying course at the very least. Several schools run them; I went on one many years ago, in Snowdonia. We had 40 knot winds for most of the weekend, and despite the highly experienced instructor sitting next to me, I remember it as scary, vomit-inducing, and not to be repeated by choice. I learned a huge amount about dealing with the mountain phenomena that before that were only theoretical, but as a result I chose not to have to unless absolutely necessary. Greatest respect to those like TC and others for whom it IS necessary at times. For the rest of us, in helicopters take the coastal route unless it's a lovely sunny day with light winds and a good forecast...and even then be prepared to divert if necessary.
And I repeat, in case others need to be reminded - helicopters are not gliders!!!
Sorry to go on at such length, but there are too many accidents like this and clearly the point needs to be made many times.
And I repeat, in case others need to be reminded - helicopters are not gliders!!!
Sorry to go on at such length, but there are too many accidents like this and clearly the point needs to be made many times.
I prefer bad weather offshore to fly into 100% of the time compared to bad weather in the mountains...I've been flying over tiger country in the mountains for a while and the pucker factor never goes away, no matter how good the weather, especially if I've only got one engine.
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I did a mountain flying course with Mike Smith (Q's Dad, not the late headset hair) back in the 80's in Snowdonia. At one point we were going up 400 fpm with the needles split in a Hughes 269. I've also seen an S76 around the area of this crash hit nearly full power at 5500 AMSL just to stay level.
I love mountains, but in a helicopter they are best admired from a distance
SND
I love mountains, but in a helicopter they are best admired from a distance
SND
Si Naiail: Snowdon peaks out @ 3065 feet. Don't say that too loud to any one from the rest of the world, because they'd laugh at you. They trip over this altitude en route to the real mountains in their back yard. But I must add that I have total and complete respect for the hills......absolutely.
Yes I spent 13 years living inside this beautiful but unforgiving terrain near Snowdon but was very lucky indeed to have completed a proper mountain flying qualification on exchange with the CAF many moons ago where the average landing zone was around 15-18000 feet. But the machines we flew could cope (CH124's).
And don't even quiz VF over his credentials - he makes all of us look like newbie's!
Mary - I occasionally spoke to those glider wallah's near Deeside as I traversed their zones. I bet if you were honest - you'd admit that when in fact you did soar at 20000 feet - you did it without oxygen, didn't you?
Yes I spent 13 years living inside this beautiful but unforgiving terrain near Snowdon but was very lucky indeed to have completed a proper mountain flying qualification on exchange with the CAF many moons ago where the average landing zone was around 15-18000 feet. But the machines we flew could cope (CH124's).
And don't even quiz VF over his credentials - he makes all of us look like newbie's!
Mary - I occasionally spoke to those glider wallah's near Deeside as I traversed their zones. I bet if you were honest - you'd admit that when in fact you did soar at 20000 feet - you did it without oxygen, didn't you?
Thread Starter
Yes, they do, but often 300km to 1000km from a nice warm ocean. A large part of the problem with British and Norwegian hills, whether you are on the ground or in the air, is that the air comes in from a cold ocean and straight onto them.
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Mary,
Thanks for the lesson the lenticular over Mt Blanc is called the Donkey because it doesn't move for days on end.
Never ridge soared a big helicopter but sat next to a Deeside man whilst he did up A4 alley.
But back to the thread strong winds, mountains and low cloud at or below MSA needs caution.
Thanks for the lesson the lenticular over Mt Blanc is called the Donkey because it doesn't move for days on end.
Never ridge soared a big helicopter but sat next to a Deeside man whilst he did up A4 alley.
But back to the thread strong winds, mountains and low cloud at or below MSA needs caution.
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Jim
True, in the case of the Rocks, but be very careful on the Alberta side of them. The mountains in Baffin and en route Alert a different beast altogether. Same with the Tourngats in Labrador, stunning but be careful. Got quite a bit of experience in these, bit of a knee trembler towing a survey bird up and down them contouring at 240ft AGL when the bloody thing on a 180ft line.......
Most scary for me was years ago flying seismic in Alberta dropping a survey crew off at around 10 grand in a Notar. Got nailed by a downdraft as we were climbing up to the pad. VSI was pegged at the stop....finally got spat at the side.The holy f@ck handles came in handy that day, we were along for the ride....
True, in the case of the Rocks, but be very careful on the Alberta side of them. The mountains in Baffin and en route Alert a different beast altogether. Same with the Tourngats in Labrador, stunning but be careful. Got quite a bit of experience in these, bit of a knee trembler towing a survey bird up and down them contouring at 240ft AGL when the bloody thing on a 180ft line.......
Most scary for me was years ago flying seismic in Alberta dropping a survey crew off at around 10 grand in a Notar. Got nailed by a downdraft as we were climbing up to the pad. VSI was pegged at the stop....finally got spat at the side.The holy f@ck handles came in handy that day, we were along for the ride....
TC - I think you've knocked off about 500' from the top of Snowdon
Is that age-related memory or a typo because you haven't got your glasses on
Is that age-related memory or a typo because you haven't got your glasses on
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An apology
To Pilots Crabb, 2l2, and Whirlybird....I apologise for sounding condescending. Please don't ban me from the Rotorhead site, you chaps talk a lot more sense than most who contribute to PP. Especially the pilot who recommended on this forum the pre-briefing of pax to avoid pressure to carry on when better to go to Plan B.
Thomas Coupling, it did take me several attempts to make the oxygen system work correctly. It worked OK eventually, when really needed.
I would never turn down a ride in a helicopter! (I did go for one lesson, at Elstree, and enjoyed it, but too old now to change from FW, that's for sure) My favorite trip was a joy ride down the beach in New Jersey, the aircraft had amazing viz all around, and straight down as well past our feet!
Thomas Coupling, it did take me several attempts to make the oxygen system work correctly. It worked OK eventually, when really needed.
I would never turn down a ride in a helicopter! (I did go for one lesson, at Elstree, and enjoyed it, but too old now to change from FW, that's for sure) My favorite trip was a joy ride down the beach in New Jersey, the aircraft had amazing viz all around, and straight down as well past our feet!
