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Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland

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Missing Twin Squirrel: Wales/Ireland

Old 11th Apr 2017, 00:47
  #321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Age: 71
Posts: 4,170
Originally Posted by Jay Sata View Post
My son is Royal Navy so lets not go down that route Delta

Done some hairy VFR flights from Nassau to North Eluthra at night single engine in a 172 many years ago.

John is a bit like Dick Smith (well known rich Aussie pilot)

Well planned and not had the hassle of the crap UK weather.

Plus the temptation to fire up and fly when it is just a few steps next to the house.

No need to ask anyone to approve or sanction the flight.

When the aircraft or helicopter is in the garden the urge to go is easy.
I had promised myself not to respond, but you are going too far if that's a reference to me and my flying. You obviously have no idea of my background nor my flying experience in and around the UK and world wide both before and after I migrated to Australia.

The very seldom occasions when I had one of my helicopters in my property were when a job required it, such as positioning prior to a dawn departure for a bushfire job. All others were from one of my bases around the east coast or the Alpine region. Your insinuation that I have no experience of mountain flying and associated conditions is, quite frankly, offensive.

I am well aware of the Welsh mountains and the associated conditions, and (since you ask) had I been flying that route it would have been easy to dogleg around the hills to remain over lower ground and/or coastal. Banging on in the manner that you are does you no credit and, again, makes me question your ability to research a story that you may report upon.

No more from me: I'll get on my motorbike and do something more constructive than discussing this nonsense.
John Eacott is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2017, 01:07
  #322 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
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I think the issues we have John is that you have always been a commercial paid pilot while I have been a private recreational pilot. As a member of the latter group we are more likely to get in to situations and areas that commercial pilots never enter.

I have landed in places in Australia that would horrify you.

The sad fact about the accident we are discussing is that the pilot learnt to fly in a low level
benign weather area. The helicopter he was flying was an easy machine to fly and he was very confident he could reach his destination.

He would not have taken off that day if he felt he could not reach his destination.
.
I am well aware of the Welsh mountains and the associated conditions, and (since you ask) had I been flying that route it would have been easy to dogleg around the hills to remain over lower ground and/or coastal. Banging on in the manner that you are does you no credit and, again, makes me question your ability to research a story that you may report upon.
The suggestion you would "dogleg" around the hills raises questions for me.

I am sure you are well aware of Snowdonia but I question whether you have ever tried to fly it low level in bad weather single pilot?

There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR.
Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2017, 05:37
  #323 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
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There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR
What utter bollocks! Why don't you take your PPL 'horror stories' off to the bar at your local flying club where you can thrill and impress the newbies - on this forum you are dealing with professional pilots (the clue is in its name) and mostly making a bit of a prat of yourself = as you have on the NPAS thread.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 07:23
  #324 (permalink)  

The Original Whirly
 
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There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR.
Loads of opportunities actually. But you need to plan for a possible diversion, or know the area well. I suspect he did neither, though we don't actually know that.
Whirlybird is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2017, 07:57
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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Article here mentioning this flight, the coastguard S92 and an R44 accident.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 08:12
  #326 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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John
Surely hardly an article, in the accepted media sense, but essentially a marketing promotion for Stewarts Law. Don't think this says anything new does it?
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 08:15
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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Not so much an article as blatant advertising for the law firm he works for - and a bit of bigging himself up at the same time.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 08:24
  #328 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
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"What utter bollocks! Why don't you take your PPL 'horror stories' off to the bar at your local flying club where you can thrill and impress the newbies"


Well said crab!! I think you and I know the area a bit better than some............!
Georg1na is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2017, 09:55
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Gentlemen
Think you will find that the guy's surname from Stuarts Law says it all, well thats how he came across when he came to see me !
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 09:58
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Loads of opportunities actually.
I can only think of two - north then west, or west then north

I would usually choose the latter, assuming a typical westerly/south-westerly wind, but I have done both. And gone straight through the middle on various occasions when the weather suited. On one occasion, leaving Valley for a secret airshow in Gloucestershire, the weather was so bad that we had to go all the way round the tip of the Lleyn Peninsula and down the coast past Aberystwyth before the cloudbase lifted enough for us to coast in. All very straightforward of course with big tanks and C**** B***** on the radar
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 11:52
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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I think we need to temper the single pilot PPL(H) VFR debate a little. We don't know the pilot's background yet. While a businessman and flying PPL he may well have had significant experience, military training, IFR etc - we don't know yet. And also - even though I agree everything points to a weather related incident assumptions can be dangerous. There are many businessmen pilots (and commercial pilots) who take unnecessary risks - and likewise many who do not
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 12:05
  #332 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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TOTD -
the weather was so bad that we had to go all the way round the tip of the Lleyn Peninsula and down the coast past Aberystwyth
Ok, not wishing to willy wave but! DEC 1998 Valley to London with, I presume, a VIP with friends in VERY high places requiring an urgent medevac (liver transplant). Night, cloud cover extensive with embedded cb and down to 300ft over land and sea, snow showers and icing if we'd gone IMC. So, 200 feet, rad alt hold engaged, 3 prs of NVG plus radar right the way down the coast to the Bristol Channel, turn left, two bridges clear so eventually speaking to Heathrow we were able to climb with reported cloud tops of 5000ft. Return journey made with emergency cloud break over Lyneham having gone IMC following the M4 and unable to cross a motorway bridge due to low cloud. Reason for return rather than nite stop? We had the only consultant surgeon and two specialist nurses from Ysbyty Gwynedd on board and they needed 'em back. Craziest job I ever did.

Last edited by Al-bert; 11th Apr 2017 at 12:37.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 02:33
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if your question was ever answered, I understand it to be a company decision, to prevent the media from tracking the cabs on missions and harassing the SAR flights.

It's a bit pointless since they can usually be seen via other public means.
Agreed.
Come now, is it likely that a UK network news helicopter will get in the way of a SAR mission?

News helicopters with their 1000mm stabilised lens very occasionally stumble on the subject of a search.

Whilst distressing scenes may be visible from the air, it does not follow that such scenes are always broadcast, quite the contrary.

Public awareness of the role of SAR can be maintained by including air to air video in news broadcasts.


Mickjoebill
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 07:07
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure if your question was ever answered, I understand it to be a company decision, to prevent the media from tracking the cabs on missions and harassing the SAR flights.
Yes that sounds like a PR cover for some other reason, maybe they don't want people to see how much training they are doing
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2017, 07:12
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Can't dogleg around Snowdonia?

Those last two runs I did to Bangor hospital must have been an optical illusion
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 13:41
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Jay Sata
I am sure you are well aware of Snowdonia but I question whether you have ever tried to fly it low level in bad weather single pilot?

There is no opportunity to dogleg around the area. It must be avoided at all costs if you want to fly VFR.

You are talking complete and utter bollox
toptobottom is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2017, 15:03
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
Agreed.
Come now, is it likely that a UK network news helicopter will get in the way of a SAR mission?
A sadly naive view of the problem.
dClbydalpha is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2017, 15:48
  #338 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: UK
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Can I just pass a comment.

As I have said before I am not a pilot but a friend of the pilot and the family that were killed in this accident.

I have read this thread with a view to try and get some understanding or insight into what could of gone so horribly wrong.

The last two or three pages are a revelation, perhaps I expected a professional pilots network would have pilots that have geniune knowledge to impart and a willingness to share, learn or explore different options. I am an intelligent man and understand the early points raised in this thread.

The last few pages just comes across as a 'dick swinging' competition.

I am sorry if I am rude, I don't mean to be. Kevin was a man that did not take unneccesary risks. He owned a business that assembles huge metal structures - he was risk averse in business and cherished his family - I accept that all the available evidence looks like he made a fatal error of judgement - but why

If the point in the reply 180 states that he was above the cloud threshold so IMC at that point. So one could assume on autopilot - the aircraft was fitted with it.

Is there anyway to find out if he turned back ?

With absolutely zero flight knowledge or flying hours get the impression this is a below MSA and a heading issue - he was not on course

Could that be right

Are the accident investigators reports published ?

Thank you for reading this, I apologise if i come across as a jerk, just lost a friend and don't understand why
Kawa1400 is offline  
Old 12th Apr 2017, 16:26
  #339 (permalink)  

The Original Whirly
 
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Kawa1400, I'm really sorry that you lost a friend. The AAIB (Air Accidents Investigation Branch) report will eventually be published. Details here It looks as though you can sign up to receive email alerts from them; I've never done it, so I don't know how that works. Maybe someone else here will. But I know that reports sometimes take months to be completed.

As for what happened, it's all speculation right now. I do know that even careful people sometimes make mistakes or act out of character. We all do, but only in aviation does it tend to be fatal. I've lost friends that way too.

Did he turn back? The report may be able to comment on that; I'm not sure. They can probably find out which direction the helicopter was facing when it crashed...or maybe not. He could have been off course, especially if the weather was bad, and even a small mistake like that in Snowdonia can be fatal. I really don't know, and I don't have as much experience as some of the people on here.

I'm sorry if you've been upset by some of the comments here. Bear in mind there are all sorts of people on these forums - real experts, some who know rather less, some who know absolutely nothing, plus people who aren't what they pretend to be. Yes, and dick swingers too! It's the internet after all. But one thing most of them have in common, maybe, is a tendency to assume that they're talking only to helicopter flying colleagues, not people like yourself. We shouldn't do that, but it happens.

If you stick around long enough you may find out something useful on here, but don't bank on it.

Sorry I can't be of any more help.

Whirly
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 17:30
  #340 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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What an excellent response Whirly, well done. Really sorry Kawa1400 for your loss, hope Whirly's comments help a bit.
rotorspeed is offline  

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