SAR S-92 Missing Ireland
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Top cover vs mutual support
The dispute above as to whether 116 was doing top cover or mutual support seems a bit silly - was 116 not the plan B for the unavailable *top cover* CASA?
One hopes that the investigation digs into plan A as deeply as it will the technical sequence of events which led to the loss of the aircraft and crew, even if that embarrasses command officers or ministers.
One hopes that the investigation digs into plan A as deeply as it will the technical sequence of events which led to the loss of the aircraft and crew, even if that embarrasses command officers or ministers.
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CRAB, thanks for your explanation. Rotorspeed, my choice of Blackeock as an IP is based on bugger all experience of the area or the SAR AP modes in the 92. However, armed with what I have flown over the ocean I would expect the radar return looking back East towards the coast to look very busy. 13 Km for an IP is nothing really when we use 6-7 No this days for the Base turn onto an ARA final with an uncluttered Radar return and one clean target destination.
It just seems to make sense that before getting close the the bay coastline you take the significant obstacle out of play i.e. Blackrock.
Like I said though I am not pontificating from a strong position experience wise rather I just think the flight path the trace implies is not too unreasonable.
Only one other thing I notice and that is the base turn on the trace looks very tight. It may be just the scale of it or it could mean they were very rapidly trying to course reverse. Anyone have an opinion on this?
It just seems to make sense that before getting close the the bay coastline you take the significant obstacle out of play i.e. Blackrock.
Like I said though I am not pontificating from a strong position experience wise rather I just think the flight path the trace implies is not too unreasonable.
Only one other thing I notice and that is the base turn on the trace looks very tight. It may be just the scale of it or it could mean they were very rapidly trying to course reverse. Anyone have an opinion on this?
DB, the base turn may not necessarily be as tight as drawn on a GPS track trace. Remember, it is simply a series of positions at fixed time intervals and the line drawn between does not always accurately depict the actual track flown.
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Both FMS Computers will be of particular interest to the Investigation Team.
The FDR won't give them the "Planned" FMS Data.
Pretty sure the Individual doing the Flight Following IE Flight Track/Skywatch/Skytrack....whatever you want to call it has already asked plenty of questions.
I see Skytrack as a marketing tool and feel good thing for Oil & Gas Heli Op's,.....But SAR/EMS is a whole different story.
It's as good as ATC these days. It's as good as a third Pilot.
Modern Tech is only as good as the Individual/s interpreting/believing/monitoring & acting on the data as presented.
When confronted with the choice of optimism verses reality, most choose optimism because reality is just to confrontational to deal with.
BTW if the range on the Moving Map is scaled in tight, and it would be during approach......both Blackrock & Blacksod would look very much the same. Both are fringe coastal, both have have a lighthouse adjacent, both are approached from the water, depending on wind direction
The Stars all aligned the wrong way on this fateful night.
The FDR won't give them the "Planned" FMS Data.
Pretty sure the Individual doing the Flight Following IE Flight Track/Skywatch/Skytrack....whatever you want to call it has already asked plenty of questions.
I see Skytrack as a marketing tool and feel good thing for Oil & Gas Heli Op's,.....But SAR/EMS is a whole different story.
It's as good as ATC these days. It's as good as a third Pilot.
Modern Tech is only as good as the Individual/s interpreting/believing/monitoring & acting on the data as presented.
When confronted with the choice of optimism verses reality, most choose optimism because reality is just to confrontational to deal with.
BTW if the range on the Moving Map is scaled in tight, and it would be during approach......both Blackrock & Blacksod would look very much the same. Both are fringe coastal, both have have a lighthouse adjacent, both are approached from the water, depending on wind direction
The Stars all aligned the wrong way on this fateful night.
Last edited by buzz66; 18th Mar 2017 at 16:49.
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If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.
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If top-cover is felt to be a necessity for SAR then that should be baked into the tender and bid cost.
If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.
If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.
The whole top-cover issue simply wan't a problem when we had a Royal Air Force that was interested in SAR and maritime aviation.
Any long-range jobs (more than 150Nm) from the Irish coast were done by RAF SAR from Valley or Chivenor or in extremis Navy SAR from Culdrose and Prestwick (RAF Sea Kings had the greater range).
Top cover was provided by the Nimrod fleet, as Jim671 has highlighted, with experienced maritime aviators, extensive comms and surveillance suite and the ability to drop liferafts and supplies.
All this went in relatively short order with the demise of the Nimrod and the contractorisation of the Mil SAR Force.
Somewhere in the change over, responsibility for the area W of Ireland was handed back to the Irish CG and Govt - if they didn't elect to provide adequate replacements then that is a matter for them.
However, having said that, it is the UK SRR (Search and Rescue Region) that extends much further West than a helicopter than reach - therefore should it not still be a UK responsibility?
Any long-range jobs (more than 150Nm) from the Irish coast were done by RAF SAR from Valley or Chivenor or in extremis Navy SAR from Culdrose and Prestwick (RAF Sea Kings had the greater range).
Top cover was provided by the Nimrod fleet, as Jim671 has highlighted, with experienced maritime aviators, extensive comms and surveillance suite and the ability to drop liferafts and supplies.
All this went in relatively short order with the demise of the Nimrod and the contractorisation of the Mil SAR Force.
Somewhere in the change over, responsibility for the area W of Ireland was handed back to the Irish CG and Govt - if they didn't elect to provide adequate replacements then that is a matter for them.
However, having said that, it is the UK SRR (Search and Rescue Region) that extends much further West than a helicopter than reach - therefore should it not still be a UK responsibility?
Godspeed, and enough of the foul weather.
Families need word, and less importantly, the Salt water will destroy many aerospace materials the longer the exposure. And no official word on what the 'significant piece of wreckage' is.
Families need word, and less importantly, the Salt water will destroy many aerospace materials the longer the exposure. And no official word on what the 'significant piece of wreckage' is.
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Flying Ireland -reS92
A further important enhancement is in the pipeline, beginning in autumn 2014. Night Vision Goggle (NVG) equipment will be introduced, with the aim of being fully established across the fleet within 18 months.
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Deepwater ROV | Marine Institute
Celtic Explorer looks like it off on some other task. On marinetraffic it is shown stopped between Blackhead and Ballyvaughan.
http://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area/...s/track-vessel
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So it seems feasible, if the information we have so far is all correct, that they may have clipped Black Rock during the letdown (debris on the rock that could not have been washed up) and then tried to keep control of the damaged aircraft and elect (or had no choice) to make a water landing.
This landing was clearly a hard one but survivable (at least for a short while) for one of them since you don't get thrown out of the cockpit of an S92 if you are properly strapped in.
The whys and wherefores of the choice of letdown position will only come from the accident investigation but, like so many accidents, it probably won't have one cause but many contributory factors where all the holes in the swiss cheese have lined up.
Lets hope the wreckage and the remaining crew-members can be recovered soon, for the sakes of all involved.
This landing was clearly a hard one but survivable (at least for a short while) for one of them since you don't get thrown out of the cockpit of an S92 if you are properly strapped in.
The whys and wherefores of the choice of letdown position will only come from the accident investigation but, like so many accidents, it probably won't have one cause but many contributory factors where all the holes in the swiss cheese have lined up.
Lets hope the wreckage and the remaining crew-members can be recovered soon, for the sakes of all involved.