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SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

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SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

Old 18th Mar 2017, 15:44
  #261 (permalink)  

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Top cover vs mutual support

The dispute above as to whether 116 was doing top cover or mutual support seems a bit silly - was 116 not the plan B for the unavailable *top cover* CASA?

One hopes that the investigation digs into plan A as deeply as it will the technical sequence of events which led to the loss of the aircraft and crew, even if that embarrasses command officers or ministers.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 16:04
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CRAB, thanks for your explanation. Rotorspeed, my choice of Blackeock as an IP is based on bugger all experience of the area or the SAR AP modes in the 92. However, armed with what I have flown over the ocean I would expect the radar return looking back East towards the coast to look very busy. 13 Km for an IP is nothing really when we use 6-7 No this days for the Base turn onto an ARA final with an uncluttered Radar return and one clean target destination.

It just seems to make sense that before getting close the the bay coastline you take the significant obstacle out of play i.e. Blackrock.

Like I said though I am not pontificating from a strong position experience wise rather I just think the flight path the trace implies is not too unreasonable.

Only one other thing I notice and that is the base turn on the trace looks very tight. It may be just the scale of it or it could mean they were very rapidly trying to course reverse. Anyone have an opinion on this?
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 16:14
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DB, the base turn may not necessarily be as tight as drawn on a GPS track trace. Remember, it is simply a series of positions at fixed time intervals and the line drawn between does not always accurately depict the actual track flown.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 16:26
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Both FMS Computers will be of particular interest to the Investigation Team.
The FDR won't give them the "Planned" FMS Data.
Pretty sure the Individual doing the Flight Following IE Flight Track/Skywatch/Skytrack....whatever you want to call it has already asked plenty of questions.

I see Skytrack as a marketing tool and feel good thing for Oil & Gas Heli Op's,.....But SAR/EMS is a whole different story.
It's as good as ATC these days. It's as good as a third Pilot.

Modern Tech is only as good as the Individual/s interpreting/believing/monitoring & acting on the data as presented.
When confronted with the choice of optimism verses reality, most choose optimism because reality is just to confrontational to deal with.

BTW if the range on the Moving Map is scaled in tight, and it would be during approach......both Blackrock & Blacksod would look very much the same. Both are fringe coastal, both have have a lighthouse adjacent, both are approached from the water, depending on wind direction

The Stars all aligned the wrong way on this fateful night.

Last edited by buzz66; 18th Mar 2017 at 16:49.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 16:28
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MarkD
The dispute above as to whether 116 was doing top cover or mutual support seems a bit silly - was 116 not the plan B for the unavailable *top cover* CASA?
If top-cover is felt to be a necessity for SAR then that should be baked into the tender and bid cost.

If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 18:44
  #266 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by El Bunto
If top-cover is felt to be a necessity for SAR then that should be baked into the tender and bid cost.

If the parties involved decide to go ahead and low-ball without it, subbing helis when they can't persuade someone to give them non-contracted, non-guaranteed, unpaid fixed-wing top-cover, well... I know where the embarrased faces should be. Not at Air Corps HQ, Baldonnel.
If top cover was not to be called upon because it's a contractor responsibility, why would the DF have entertained the request at all, instead of pleading personnel shortages now?
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 18:46
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Fuel

may have missed this
but why should there be 2 refueling possibilities within a few miles of each other?
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 18:58
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Originally Posted by Michael Gee
may have missed this
but why should there be 2 refueling possibilities within a few miles of each other?
I believe there aren't. Blackrock is not a refuel point.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 20:14
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The whole top-cover issue simply wan't a problem when we had a Royal Air Force that was interested in SAR and maritime aviation.

Any long-range jobs (more than 150Nm) from the Irish coast were done by RAF SAR from Valley or Chivenor or in extremis Navy SAR from Culdrose and Prestwick (RAF Sea Kings had the greater range).

Top cover was provided by the Nimrod fleet, as Jim671 has highlighted, with experienced maritime aviators, extensive comms and surveillance suite and the ability to drop liferafts and supplies.

All this went in relatively short order with the demise of the Nimrod and the contractorisation of the Mil SAR Force.

Somewhere in the change over, responsibility for the area W of Ireland was handed back to the Irish CG and Govt - if they didn't elect to provide adequate replacements then that is a matter for them.

However, having said that, it is the UK SRR (Search and Rescue Region) that extends much further West than a helicopter than reach - therefore should it not still be a UK responsibility?
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 21:14
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Would this new machine perhaps have been equipped with the Sikorsky Rig Approach System?
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 21:37
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Granuaile has left Galway Docks for Black Sod.

It took on extra equipment, including what looks like a underwater RV
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 22:15
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Godspeed, and enough of the foul weather.


Families need word, and less importantly, the Salt water will destroy many aerospace materials the longer the exposure. And no official word on what the 'significant piece of wreckage' is.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 22:49
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Originally Posted by Red5ive
Granuaile has left Galway Docks for Black Sod.

It took on extra equipment, including what looks like a underwater RV
It is an rv & I would of thought that the Celtic Explorer, which also has cranes & survey equipment would follow along.
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Old 18th Mar 2017, 23:33
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Flying Ireland -reS92

Originally Posted by Scattercat
Which is why I asked the question back in post #93. I would be surprised if they were not using NVD on this type of mission, but maybe someone closer to this could answer.
A further important enhancement is in the pipeline, beginning in autumn 2014. Night Vision Goggle (NVG) equipment will be introduced, with the aim of being fully established across the fleet within 18 months.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 00:04
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Originally Posted by Galwayguy
It is an rv & I would of thought that the Celtic Explorer, which also has cranes & survey equipment would follow along.
Looks like the one from Celtic Explorer
Deepwater ROV | Marine Institute

Celtic Explorer looks like it off on some other task. On marinetraffic it is shown stopped between Blackhead and Ballyvaughan.
http://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area/...s/track-vessel
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 00:21
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Celtic Explorer was tasked to the site,, may have been redirected
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 00:45
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Originally Posted by reefrat
Celtic Explorer was tasked to the site,, may have been redirected
Its in the link I posted above
Blue whiting acoustic survey (18/03/2017 to 07/04/2017)
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 09:06
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Originally Posted by cncpc
Would this new machine perhaps have been equipped with the Sikorsky Rig Approach System?
No, but it does have the SAR AFCS, which is more comprehensive and includes some of the modes that the Rig Approach uses, such as Velocity Hold.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 09:33
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Originally Posted by Red5ive
Its in the link I posted above
Seems a bit strange to be tasked back to fish. They may only get windows of opportunity & you think that they would want all their assets available.

Another priority must be to get back on the Island for a full search.
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Old 19th Mar 2017, 10:32
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So it seems feasible, if the information we have so far is all correct, that they may have clipped Black Rock during the letdown (debris on the rock that could not have been washed up) and then tried to keep control of the damaged aircraft and elect (or had no choice) to make a water landing.

This landing was clearly a hard one but survivable (at least for a short while) for one of them since you don't get thrown out of the cockpit of an S92 if you are properly strapped in.

The whys and wherefores of the choice of letdown position will only come from the accident investigation but, like so many accidents, it probably won't have one cause but many contributory factors where all the holes in the swiss cheese have lined up.

Lets hope the wreckage and the remaining crew-members can be recovered soon, for the sakes of all involved.
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