NPAS 2017 news
So are you saying there were no police 206's 20 years ago?
Julian Verity was running a B206 out of Cardiff Wales Airport on a South Wales Police contract back in the late 1980's
In those days the SWP control room was in Bridgend.
Julian Verity was running a B206 out of Cardiff Wales Airport on a South Wales Police contract back in the late 1980's
In those days the SWP control room was in Bridgend.
Tightgit
Jay, I hate to break it to you, but the late 80's was a fair bit more than 20 years ago!
(I appreciate it doesn't seem like it, it doesn't to me either)!
No, whilst the jet box and the schweizer (and the optica), had their place during the early years of air support, I'm afraid they were consigned to the dustbin of history well over 20 year ago!
(By the way, Strathclyde operated a 206 as well).
Anyway, as pleasant as this discourse is, it's time I wasn't here!
(I appreciate it doesn't seem like it, it doesn't to me either)!
No, whilst the jet box and the schweizer (and the optica), had their place during the early years of air support, I'm afraid they were consigned to the dustbin of history well over 20 year ago!
(By the way, Strathclyde operated a 206 as well).
Anyway, as pleasant as this discourse is, it's time I wasn't here!
JS, you seem to be stuck on transmit.
I too was supportive of your views on the TCT thread, but not here; you are falling wide of the mark because of what appears to be a personal bias.
By your measure, we should also get rid of our military in peacetime and our air ambulances on a quiet day.
P.S. I'm not trying to save my job. I fly corporate because the police can't, or won't pay decent salary for the quality of the people they need.
I too was supportive of your views on the TCT thread, but not here; you are falling wide of the mark because of what appears to be a personal bias.
By your measure, we should also get rid of our military in peacetime and our air ambulances on a quiet day.
P.S. I'm not trying to save my job. I fly corporate because the police can't, or won't pay decent salary for the quality of the people they need.
Last edited by Sloppy Link; 8th Apr 2017 at 07:36.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jay Sata sounds like he knows another prune on here by the name of Romeo Papa...
RP posted some similar phishing lines on another thread...
My experience dates back to the days when freelance contract air support was bought in from the likes of Veritair back in the 1980's.
One pilot,Julian Verity,in a Jetranger plus a copper with a map alongside covering half of Wales.
Only used when there was a proper requirement and sanctioned from above.
Now the air support as they are called lift for stupid events like the two guys delaying a train by a few minutes
RP posted some similar phishing lines on another thread...
My experience dates back to the days when freelance contract air support was bought in from the likes of Veritair back in the 1980's.
One pilot,Julian Verity,in a Jetranger plus a copper with a map alongside covering half of Wales.
Only used when there was a proper requirement and sanctioned from above.
Now the air support as they are called lift for stupid events like the two guys delaying a train by a few minutes
So - a single engine helo - no use apart from on the helilanes and not at all at night in London. Oh, and not IFR capable - very useful for those poor weather jobs.....But it's OK , it's cheap
Wow this thread suddenly came awake!
A lot of argument about nothing it seems.
99% of policing is about nothing much so to snipe at the air support branch for coming out to play occasionally seems way over the top.
The only servicable Air support in London was off doing training for the anti-terror role when Westminster Bridge happened. The incident took 80 or so seconds to play through and air support was nowhere to be seen and had to be brought in from Essex, Surrey and Oxfordshire. I think the first air asset on scene was the SKY tv helicopter and so the first downlink images into the police HQ were probably from that. Indeed the ground based firearms branch was also nowhere to be seen when it all went off. In this instance they were close enough in the event to take out the instigator quite quickly. Lucky it was Westminster!
But this all goes back to the generalities of policing. Policing, like the army and a whole lot of services, is 99% of nothing so that means that most of the time it provides 'bad' value. Bad value driving around in cars, on bicycles [2 by 2], and helicopter sitting around waiting for the passing terror suspect, bank robber, missing person etc etc that might, like Westminster, play out in less than two minutes.....
How can you audit a product like that?
Buying, staffing and fueling 100 cars that everyone is quite happy are driving around in circles possibly costs way more that a few helicopter sorties and [even if a drone could go beyond line of sight] has anyone priced the cost of support for such a device that is going to be flying round aimlessly for 99% of the time?
To support the availability of one tiny 'line of sight' quad rotor 24/7 will take a minimum of 3 officers and one vehicle per day and you may have to wait 2-3 hours for it to arrive along crowded roads. Move up the market to a real surveillance asset [currently illegal] will involve mobile control rooms extra staff etc etc and probably twin engines.....
A lot of argument about nothing it seems.
99% of policing is about nothing much so to snipe at the air support branch for coming out to play occasionally seems way over the top.
The only servicable Air support in London was off doing training for the anti-terror role when Westminster Bridge happened. The incident took 80 or so seconds to play through and air support was nowhere to be seen and had to be brought in from Essex, Surrey and Oxfordshire. I think the first air asset on scene was the SKY tv helicopter and so the first downlink images into the police HQ were probably from that. Indeed the ground based firearms branch was also nowhere to be seen when it all went off. In this instance they were close enough in the event to take out the instigator quite quickly. Lucky it was Westminster!
But this all goes back to the generalities of policing. Policing, like the army and a whole lot of services, is 99% of nothing so that means that most of the time it provides 'bad' value. Bad value driving around in cars, on bicycles [2 by 2], and helicopter sitting around waiting for the passing terror suspect, bank robber, missing person etc etc that might, like Westminster, play out in less than two minutes.....
How can you audit a product like that?
Buying, staffing and fueling 100 cars that everyone is quite happy are driving around in circles possibly costs way more that a few helicopter sorties and [even if a drone could go beyond line of sight] has anyone priced the cost of support for such a device that is going to be flying round aimlessly for 99% of the time?
To support the availability of one tiny 'line of sight' quad rotor 24/7 will take a minimum of 3 officers and one vehicle per day and you may have to wait 2-3 hours for it to arrive along crowded roads. Move up the market to a real surveillance asset [currently illegal] will involve mobile control rooms extra staff etc etc and probably twin engines.....
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Jay,
It has been quite amusing reading your feckramblings over the past week or so, I particularly enjoyed your post, #85
I find it interesting that despite there being c.300,000 people attending the Boat Races over their 4.2 mile course, that's over 71,000 people per mile, the third most highly attended sporting event worldwide, with all roads remaining open, ten days after the Westminster Bridge attack, with the national security level at 'Severe' ... on an incoming tide; you class a police helicopter over London as being "time wasting".
references:
World's Largest Sporting Crowds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ndance_figures
It has been quite amusing reading your feckramblings over the past week or so, I particularly enjoyed your post, #85
More expensive time wasting here.
Quote:
NPAS London @NPASLondon
#NPAS63 overhead for the boat race #boatrace2017 please remember that the tide comes in very fast and be careful of the wash
NPAS London @NPASLondon
#boatrace2017 A few pics from #NPAS63
Please explain how that sortie helped solve ground crimes?
Maybe is it is time for the new Met boss to reign in these joy rides?
Quote:
NPAS London @NPASLondon
#NPAS63 overhead for the boat race #boatrace2017 please remember that the tide comes in very fast and be careful of the wash
NPAS London @NPASLondon
#boatrace2017 A few pics from #NPAS63
Please explain how that sortie helped solve ground crimes?
Maybe is it is time for the new Met boss to reign in these joy rides?
I find it interesting that despite there being c.300,000 people attending the Boat Races over their 4.2 mile course, that's over 71,000 people per mile, the third most highly attended sporting event worldwide, with all roads remaining open, ten days after the Westminster Bridge attack, with the national security level at 'Severe' ... on an incoming tide; you class a police helicopter over London as being "time wasting".
references:
World's Largest Sporting Crowds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ndance_figures
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 415 Likes
on
218 Posts
Sloppy, sorry if that offends you. It's a long story but been there, done the job. I loved it but couldn't live on the well below par salary paid at the time and refused to take a significant pay cut and lose leave when a new contractor took over. So I had to move on to a better paid, but far less satisfying role.
Jay,
I find it interesting that despite there being c.300,000 people attending the Boat Races over their 4.2 mile course, that's over 71,000 people per mile, the third most highly attended sporting event worldwide, with all roads remaining open, ten days after the Westminster Bridge attack, with the national security level at 'Severe' ... on an incoming tide; you class a police helicopter over London as being "timewasting
I find it interesting that despite there being c.300,000 people attending the Boat Races over their 4.2 mile course, that's over 71,000 people per mile, the third most highly attended sporting event worldwide, with all roads remaining open, ten days after the Westminster Bridge attack, with the national security level at 'Severe' ... on an incoming tide; you class a police helicopter over London as being "timewasting
Did the police helicopter prevent any crime test did not occur 30 years ago?
Over London,over football matches and over a benign sporting event such as the boat race.
Very expensive noise as well.
The boat race existed long before the Met or NPAS had helicopters.
I am sure it will be there when the helicopters have gone.
Balloon surveilance perhaps.
I love helicopters and waste stupid amounts of my money flying them.
However I object to a lot of time wasting sorties where social services and local PCSO teams should be the first line of response.
My only critics are those with a vested interest as crews on the NPAS service.
Like the train crews on Southern they cannot accept change.
The scaling back of NPAS has proved too much money has been wasted in the past on the wrong sort of policing.
Helicopter noise seems to be your big issue Jay, compared to the traffic noise it is insignificant but you can't hear that because it is constantly there and your brain accepts it as the norm.
Perhaps NPAS could waste some more time and money by hovering over your house 24/7 - after a few days you just wouldn't notice it
BTW, 30 years ago we only had the IRA to deal with and life was much simpler.
Perhaps NPAS could waste some more time and money by hovering over your house 24/7 - after a few days you just wouldn't notice it
BTW, 30 years ago we only had the IRA to deal with and life was much simpler.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Does anyone else remember 'Ye Olde Pilot'.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
4 Posts
In a word Silsoe....Noise.
Did the police helicopter prevent any crime test did not occur 30 years ago?
Over London,over football matches and over a benign sporting event such as the boat race.
Very expensive noise as well.
The boat race existed long before the Met or NPAS had helicopters.
I am sure it will be there when the helicopters have gone.
Balloon surveilance perhaps.
I love helicopters and waste stupid amounts of my money flying them.
However I object to a lot of time wasting sorties where social services and local PCSO teams should be the first line of response.
My only critics are those with a vested interest as crews on the NPAS service.
Like the train crews on Southern they cannot accept change.
The scaling back of NPAS has proved too much money has been wasted in the past on the wrong sort of policing.
Did the police helicopter prevent any crime test did not occur 30 years ago?
Over London,over football matches and over a benign sporting event such as the boat race.
Very expensive noise as well.
The boat race existed long before the Met or NPAS had helicopters.
I am sure it will be there when the helicopters have gone.
Balloon surveilance perhaps.
I love helicopters and waste stupid amounts of my money flying them.
However I object to a lot of time wasting sorties where social services and local PCSO teams should be the first line of response.
My only critics are those with a vested interest as crews on the NPAS service.
Like the train crews on Southern they cannot accept change.
The scaling back of NPAS has proved too much money has been wasted in the past on the wrong sort of policing.
Yes the Boat race existed long before Helicopters came along but also before Mobile Phones, International Terrorism, Muslim Extremist, Lone Wolf attacks, Sophisticated IEDs, and a whole host of other technologies that been exploited by nefarious persons to do harm to the general public.
NOISE - OF COURSE - the whole point of policing is to prevent crime taking place. Not to catch criminals. That is the necessary by product of policing because they cannot close every opportunity available to criminals. There is little point having a quite "Stealth" helicopter. That's the same as putting speed cameras in secret places instead of showing them loud and clear to SLOW PEOPLE DOWN and prevent speeding.
If the noise upsets you GOOD. At least you know the boys in Blue are above you just as the potential criminal/Terrorist does.
Your arguments against police aviation are about money and noise. Thats all. Well I am a tax payer and I like and want the helicopter there to offset any potential act of nastiness that may occur.
Picking on the pilots who fly these machines and trying to make them take responsibility for the money that is spent is puerile and inappropriate.
I want to know what you do for a living? What possible contribution do you make to society. What difference have you EVER made to a members of the publics lives like the Police crews do every single day.
At the risk of being modded, which I would freely accept, you are the most stupid person I have ever come across on Pprune. Your postings on this and other threads makes you an embarrassment to the Rotor heads community.
Take your lily livered, jelly fish tales of misguided social conscience off our website and ply your silly ideas on someone else.
DB Out.
PS. You may well be right that sufficient bean counting dumbos tot up the bills, listen to dingbats like you and dismantle the whole freeekin NPAS in favour of drones. However, as an ex police pilot and EMS Pilot with over 5,000 missions I have a logbook full of tasks where we saved lives, found vulnerable mispers, caught very dangerous criminals and made a positive contribution to the communities that we served. The system works and works very well! You on the other hand have no experience of this. Have not seen the invaluable works the Plod and Crews do and have never saved a single life. The money as a police pilot quite frankly is a an appalling shame. However the pilots who do it, do so because they have a sense of serving. Knowing the work is justifiable and take immense satisfaction from applying their professional skills positively instead of you who appears to "flown a little bit of private flying". How can you possibly rationalise the noise and costs of your "Recreational" flying against the professional positive contribution the NPAS Boys and Girls make every single day? Oh I forgot, because you have no idea.....do you.
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 11th Apr 2017 at 09:19.
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Location, location - is very important when buying a house.
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As with the Missing Squirrel thread...
Well done Jay Sata. Complete troll or complete...
Your rantings are too much, however it has made me laugh. This site has enough nonsense and I'm surprised you haven't put your precious tuppence worth into the Missing S-92 thread....but I'm sure there's time.
Good luck. You'll need it with your 'experience'. Cheers SP.
Well done Jay Sata. Complete troll or complete...
Your rantings are too much, however it has made me laugh. This site has enough nonsense and I'm surprised you haven't put your precious tuppence worth into the Missing S-92 thread....but I'm sure there's time.
Good luck. You'll need it with your 'experience'. Cheers SP.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 415 Likes
on
218 Posts
Jay has extremely sensitive hearing. He's complaining about the noise over London but his location is S.E. Asia.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: St Johns, Newfoundland,Canada
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said DB,
The guy is getting a tad annoying to say the least. I'm flying support on one of the biggest gold mines in the World right now and we have a guy complaining of the helicopter noise. Out of 1000 odd workers, just one. He wants operations to cease from 0930-1630hrs. Go figure, reckons the helicopters are a waste of money and the noise disturbing his rest.
Not you is it Jay Sata. Funny but my machine seems to be blade slapping a little more than usual slinging in heavy loads.
Must speak to my engineer, not.......
The guy is getting a tad annoying to say the least. I'm flying support on one of the biggest gold mines in the World right now and we have a guy complaining of the helicopter noise. Out of 1000 odd workers, just one. He wants operations to cease from 0930-1630hrs. Go figure, reckons the helicopters are a waste of money and the noise disturbing his rest.
Not you is it Jay Sata. Funny but my machine seems to be blade slapping a little more than usual slinging in heavy loads.
Must speak to my engineer, not.......
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Other than that tiny matter of semantics, I agree with every word.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
4 Posts
DB - I have to take issue with you on that statement. While he may well be an idiot, significant he is not. I think it may be an awareness of this fact that makes him stand on the sidelines and shout at those who do something of significance with their lives.
Other than that tiny matter of semantics, I agree with every word.
Other than that tiny matter of semantics, I agree with every word.
Shall we get back on topic, ie: the decline and fall of NPAS.
So, I sent the figures that I posted back at #40, here:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/586...ml#post9628582
to all the English/Welsh PCCs. I only received a half dozen replies, most of which just acknowledged the “group” reply from the Chair of the NPAS National Board, or just quoted the party line.
One from a Midlands Force was more forthcoming. They aren’t particularly happy with what they are getting, and sent me a copy of one of their 6 monthly reports, on NPAS support, that the Force sends to the PCC.
Some of their figures are interesting/depressing. In the year to date(Report dated 28th November. Not sure if the year is from January or April)as a percentage of total calls, they had an attendance rate of 27.4% (38% 2014/15), a decline rate of 17.4% (11.6% 2014/15) and a cancellation rate of 44.8% (40.8% 2014/15). The cancellation rate represents where we have requested NPAS but subsequently cancelled them, often due to the incident being resolved or a change in circumstances.
Only 27 out of 100 times did an aircraft turn up.
Their average number of monthly requests for January to September 2016 was 53, a 61% reduction compared to an average of 135 for April to December 2015.
Attendance times for priority one, from request received to arriving on scene have increased from an average of 18.6 minutes to 20.53
minutes and for priority two, have increased from an average of 25 minutes for April to December 2015 to 43 minutes for January to September 2016. Outrageous!(my word)
They have reduced their requests significantly by over 60% yet they have seen a less than satisfactory service provision with only 27.4 % of requests resulting in deployment of NPAS.
At worst the average overall response time for a priority two has been 54 minutes in April from request to arrival at scene. This is less than ideal(their words). NPAS were going to increase their cost to them by nearly a third due to(funny old thing) the fact that it’s taking NPAS longer to reduce their costs that originally thought, and the Force was requesting them too often, compared to other Forces. However NPAS relented, and agreed to keep their charges the same as last year.
The PCC and the Chief Con have requested that they be kept the same for more than one year.
I suspect that they are not the only ones in that situation.
So, I sent the figures that I posted back at #40, here:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/586...ml#post9628582
to all the English/Welsh PCCs. I only received a half dozen replies, most of which just acknowledged the “group” reply from the Chair of the NPAS National Board, or just quoted the party line.
One from a Midlands Force was more forthcoming. They aren’t particularly happy with what they are getting, and sent me a copy of one of their 6 monthly reports, on NPAS support, that the Force sends to the PCC.
Some of their figures are interesting/depressing. In the year to date(Report dated 28th November. Not sure if the year is from January or April)as a percentage of total calls, they had an attendance rate of 27.4% (38% 2014/15), a decline rate of 17.4% (11.6% 2014/15) and a cancellation rate of 44.8% (40.8% 2014/15). The cancellation rate represents where we have requested NPAS but subsequently cancelled them, often due to the incident being resolved or a change in circumstances.
Only 27 out of 100 times did an aircraft turn up.
Their average number of monthly requests for January to September 2016 was 53, a 61% reduction compared to an average of 135 for April to December 2015.
Attendance times for priority one, from request received to arriving on scene have increased from an average of 18.6 minutes to 20.53
minutes and for priority two, have increased from an average of 25 minutes for April to December 2015 to 43 minutes for January to September 2016. Outrageous!(my word)
They have reduced their requests significantly by over 60% yet they have seen a less than satisfactory service provision with only 27.4 % of requests resulting in deployment of NPAS.
At worst the average overall response time for a priority two has been 54 minutes in April from request to arrival at scene. This is less than ideal(their words). NPAS were going to increase their cost to them by nearly a third due to(funny old thing) the fact that it’s taking NPAS longer to reduce their costs that originally thought, and the Force was requesting them too often, compared to other Forces. However NPAS relented, and agreed to keep their charges the same as last year.
The PCC and the Chief Con have requested that they be kept the same for more than one year.
I suspect that they are not the only ones in that situation.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 415 Likes
on
218 Posts
MG, I'm sure all of us with any relevant experience will be saddened by those figures, but not at all surprised. What a complete mess.