NPAS 2017 news
Avoid imitations
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I recall it being put forward as both. I said here, that people had made a career by showing that money could be saved by using helicopters (to greatly reduce man hours used to carry out searches, which they do) and that someone else would make a career out of dismantling it all, to prove that money could be saved by doing so.
A case of the cat being out of the bag, rather than a rabbit being pulled out of a hat.
A case of the cat being out of the bag, rather than a rabbit being pulled out of a hat.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 2nd Dec 2017 at 19:43.
.... a fixed-wing aircraft will take at least twice if not three times as long as a helicopter to take off, and this might mean that it is more suited to tasks requiring long flying durations than those requiring an immediate response.....
How do they know that?
The Chief Pilot was, I understand, based at an International Airport in Manchester where time to gain access to the runway will have been long. I understand that at Teesside - and you can ditto that at Doncaster - it was so quiet that take-off times were short.
And this takes us to the point .... they have not flown fixed wing for a couple of years, how do they know? No plan, no tactics and no interim aircraft. There are a couple EO/IR equipped P68 out there they could have on lease.... OK they are not identical or IFR but they could have been doing something with them. Like flying over Norwich chasing hares....
Meanwhile the pilots for the as yet undelivered [or certified] P68 aircraft are on their 900th game of Kaluki....
How do they know that?
The Chief Pilot was, I understand, based at an International Airport in Manchester where time to gain access to the runway will have been long. I understand that at Teesside - and you can ditto that at Doncaster - it was so quiet that take-off times were short.
And this takes us to the point .... they have not flown fixed wing for a couple of years, how do they know? No plan, no tactics and no interim aircraft. There are a couple EO/IR equipped P68 out there they could have on lease.... OK they are not identical or IFR but they could have been doing something with them. Like flying over Norwich chasing hares....
Meanwhile the pilots for the as yet undelivered [or certified] P68 aircraft are on their 900th game of Kaluki....
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What do you mean how do they know that? A 135 can get airborne in less than three minutes! So nine minutes is a minimum! Look at where the bloody thing is based. Instead of managing expectations the fixed win* guys have over sold it, nice one. Well, when you turn up on a nice miserable day, next to class D that won’t let you in, and the target is hard to eyeball. People will be lining up to stick the knife in. Paybacks a bitch.
It’s gonna be used, it’s gonna be of limited value. The drivers of this only need to be reminded of their over selling of the 15 base model to show that their ability to plan is ****e. Remember the rings anyone?
It’s gonna be used, it’s gonna be of limited value. The drivers of this only need to be reminded of their over selling of the 15 base model to show that their ability to plan is ****e. Remember the rings anyone?
How do they know that?
I spoke with a police fixed-wing pilot that did it regularly.
OK on a good day a 135 wins hands down most of the time but when you add ice, frost and snow you need to keep the skid-equipped helicopter inside and cosy where the fixed wing [regularly warmed up] can taxi-straight out of open doors. The helicopter needs to be taken out on the Helilift and then started.
Yes the statement was sailing pretty close to the wind!
I think the need for SPIFR on the fixed wings is to get them off the ground at Doncaster to fly to areas where the weather is not closed in.
Nothing has changed in police aviation that much. If you arrive on scene and cannot see them through the window because of rain, snow or fog you are going home.... especially in a fixed wing.
I spoke with a police fixed-wing pilot that did it regularly.
OK on a good day a 135 wins hands down most of the time but when you add ice, frost and snow you need to keep the skid-equipped helicopter inside and cosy where the fixed wing [regularly warmed up] can taxi-straight out of open doors. The helicopter needs to be taken out on the Helilift and then started.
Yes the statement was sailing pretty close to the wind!
I think the need for SPIFR on the fixed wings is to get them off the ground at Doncaster to fly to areas where the weather is not closed in.
Nothing has changed in police aviation that much. If you arrive on scene and cannot see them through the window because of rain, snow or fog you are going home.... especially in a fixed wing.
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"... it wasn't supposed to be as efficient, it was supposed to be cheaper. ..."
The NPAS concept was originally touted to the then Police Authorities and Chief Constables, as being "More effective ( not efficient ), and at a reduced cost".
When, and rightly so, questions were asked to quantify the improvements in Effectiveness, and the reductions in cost, which they ( NPAS ) could not answer, and Forces became reluctant to sign up for a Service with such unknowns,leading to delays in implementation, the Home Office Minister of the Day ( Nick Herbert ) got his BIG Rubber Stamp out, and ORDERED all Forces to comply - and sign up to NPAS.
From that moment on (IMHO ) the concept was doomed - it no longer mattered whether the new Service would achieve its Aims & Objectives to be more Effective ( or more effficient ) and cost less,because everyone HAD to join in - regardless !
Coconutty
The NPAS concept was originally touted to the then Police Authorities and Chief Constables, as being "More effective ( not efficient ), and at a reduced cost".
When, and rightly so, questions were asked to quantify the improvements in Effectiveness, and the reductions in cost, which they ( NPAS ) could not answer, and Forces became reluctant to sign up for a Service with such unknowns,leading to delays in implementation, the Home Office Minister of the Day ( Nick Herbert ) got his BIG Rubber Stamp out, and ORDERED all Forces to comply - and sign up to NPAS.
From that moment on (IMHO ) the concept was doomed - it no longer mattered whether the new Service would achieve its Aims & Objectives to be more Effective ( or more effficient ) and cost less,because everyone HAD to join in - regardless !
Coconutty
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Taxi straight out of open doors? WTF? It’s a rub hangar!
And when exactly have we had these nasty days. Less than one percent of the time?
Get Mr fixed wing on here, I’ll have his pants down. It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities?
I’m pissed off with these so called experts and managers (and journo’s) claiming to know better, doing down the work we do, in cabs that are well and truly passed their sell by date because the retards didn’t bother to PLAN.
Who cares if the guys a submariner? He’s obviously very capable and has seen through pretty much all of NPAS’s BS. I can assure you that most at my base are relieved, because now the awkward questions can be asked and answered....honestly I hope.
RTL
And when exactly have we had these nasty days. Less than one percent of the time?
Get Mr fixed wing on here, I’ll have his pants down. It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities?
I’m pissed off with these so called experts and managers (and journo’s) claiming to know better, doing down the work we do, in cabs that are well and truly passed their sell by date because the retards didn’t bother to PLAN.
Who cares if the guys a submariner? He’s obviously very capable and has seen through pretty much all of NPAS’s BS. I can assure you that most at my base are relieved, because now the awkward questions can be asked and answered....honestly I hope.
RTL
Rotate...
Unfortunately I really do not think that the awkward questions once asked will be answered. Yesterdays report will, as usual, be tomorrows door stop.
But we can but try. And you never know the rank and file may well be lucky this time...
BTW it is a Rubb Hangar. And yes, the ancient one from yesteryear [Falklands and all] was operating out of a tin hangar, and yes its all different these days and we old b****** know nothing about anything but, unfortunately for you, its us that have the wherewithall to shout the loudest without a chance of losing our jobs on your behalf. Win or lose.
And I think, as an independent, it is fair for me to say there have been casuaties among the older generation. Tigerfish was taken out by Alex Marshall as his handle was too transparent. Lost his job on the altar of resisting NPAS. Evidence enough that the ancients are playing their part.
Unfortunately I really do not think that the awkward questions once asked will be answered. Yesterdays report will, as usual, be tomorrows door stop.
But we can but try. And you never know the rank and file may well be lucky this time...
BTW it is a Rubb Hangar. And yes, the ancient one from yesteryear [Falklands and all] was operating out of a tin hangar, and yes its all different these days and we old b****** know nothing about anything but, unfortunately for you, its us that have the wherewithall to shout the loudest without a chance of losing our jobs on your behalf. Win or lose.
And I think, as an independent, it is fair for me to say there have been casuaties among the older generation. Tigerfish was taken out by Alex Marshall as his handle was too transparent. Lost his job on the altar of resisting NPAS. Evidence enough that the ancients are playing their part.
Last edited by PANews; 3rd Dec 2017 at 21:17. Reason: Tigerfish note added
It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities?
Trust
With the newspaper text now appearing in Lancashire including little gems like "The decision to close the Lancashire’s police helicopter base was made based on flawed information" and "The report also confirmed campaigners’ claims that models used justify the decision to close the Warton air base earlier this year were inadequate."
NPAS is now faced with a perception that it lied through its teeth to close Warton and therefore it stands to reason that it also lied to close down such as Wattisham [before the fixed wing aircraft were ready to replace them].
Probably less of a case with Teesside as it is in a fairly crowded area as far as bases are concerned but that yawning capability gap between Husbands Bosworth and the East Coast, London and Newcastle is all but indefensible.
Asuming the P68s ever turn up.... there will be issues with how to get AvGas and there will be a training period involved. So when they do turn up there will be six months in which the logistics of where they can uplift AvGas at night and what they need to put in place to make that work. That is exactly the sort summer weather operations they could have undertaken in the last few months in a non-capable VFR P68 [or a BN2 for that matter] on lease. But what do they seem to have done?
I guess there will be options to put in place temporary AvGas bowsers at existing bases including Exeter and Hurn assuming that the ILS will work for them out of hours. North Weald has already been mooted as a fixed wing base but it has no landing aids regardless of time of day. The number of diversion airfields must be severely limited and that [May 2017] mooted "6 hour endurance" is clearly pie in the sky where IFR flight is concerned.
NPAS is now faced with a perception that it lied through its teeth to close Warton and therefore it stands to reason that it also lied to close down such as Wattisham [before the fixed wing aircraft were ready to replace them].
Probably less of a case with Teesside as it is in a fairly crowded area as far as bases are concerned but that yawning capability gap between Husbands Bosworth and the East Coast, London and Newcastle is all but indefensible.
Asuming the P68s ever turn up.... there will be issues with how to get AvGas and there will be a training period involved. So when they do turn up there will be six months in which the logistics of where they can uplift AvGas at night and what they need to put in place to make that work. That is exactly the sort summer weather operations they could have undertaken in the last few months in a non-capable VFR P68 [or a BN2 for that matter] on lease. But what do they seem to have done?
I guess there will be options to put in place temporary AvGas bowsers at existing bases including Exeter and Hurn assuming that the ILS will work for them out of hours. North Weald has already been mooted as a fixed wing base but it has no landing aids regardless of time of day. The number of diversion airfields must be severely limited and that [May 2017] mooted "6 hour endurance" is clearly pie in the sky where IFR flight is concerned.
Last edited by PANews; 6th Dec 2017 at 10:57. Reason: Added text.
Does any of this really matter anymore?
The bottom line (first hand) is that more and more police forces are now circumventing NPAS and doing their own thing.
NPAS are just an inconvenience.
The FW additions will further exacerbate the matter.
The bottom line (first hand) is that more and more police forces are now circumventing NPAS and doing their own thing.
NPAS are just an inconvenience.
The FW additions will further exacerbate the matter.
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I think he means old fashioned police work, with cars, bikes and horses, and buying their own SUAS for photography tasks.
None of which will do what used to be done, but the current system isn't doing that either.
None of which will do what used to be done, but the current system isn't doing that either.
The Original Concept of a National Police Air Wing was fundamentally a good idea. It would have brought with it economies of scale in purchasing new aircraft. Standardised aircraft & equipment, One Insurance Policy, One fuel supply contract, One maintenance contract, better standard of training etc etc. All aimed at increasing efficiency at the point of delivery. It could have a been 1st Class organisation, had the main aim been that of enhancing delivery and efficiency! Tragically as we all know, and many of us recognised immediately, there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money. Efficiency of service delivery was never in the plan, and never could be, given that sole objective. Value for money?? Whats that?? Never heard of it!
Tigerfish
Tigerfish
there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money.
In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m
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Quote:
there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money.
That might have been the aim, but they've failed on that as well. From the HMICFRS report:
Quote:
In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m
Well if that's not grounds for going back to what we had before, nothing is!
How do we go about setting up a privatised service, outwith the Police, so that NPAS have no input, but charging the forces directly to give them value for money? Woodvale is still available, we could start off with just one force and see how we get on.
All it takes is one PCC to grow the balls to opt out of NPAS, on the basis of the figures above.
LOL! Shortly after the demise of the Nimrods, I was part of a consortium trying to replace a service previously done by Nimrods, but for a commercial operator. We got as far as picking our aircraft and discussing locations with some lovely airports when the plug was unexplainedly pulled, and we assume that it was a government instruction to pull our funding (£60m).
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You don't need to have a national air support network to save money - as this exercise has proven. 5 forces successfully got together pre NPAS to replace the old T1 fleet and made significant savings as well as standardisation of role equipment. What this proved was that if you let those who know what they are talking about do a job it gets done much better!
Alas I fear it is all much to late now and for those of us who worked hard to provide a proper service extremely disappointing.
Alas I fear it is all much to late now and for those of us who worked hard to provide a proper service extremely disappointing.