Robinson helicopters added to safety watchlist

[Old Farang]

Originally Posted by megan

A NZ technique for sling loading deer carcases out was to position the load next to a drop off, the Robby being unable to hover with the load would pull the load off the ledge, dive into the valley to get bucket speed, and Bob's your uncle.

That "technique" has been in use as far back as using Hillers. Dick Deaker has over 20,000 hours doing it without a problem. Not condoning it, but the loads are usually slung off a few thousand feet above where they are landed.

As a former R22 owner(not in NZ) there is no way I would attempt it in a Robinson though. There are several clips on YouTube, both of Dick in a H500, and an R22 showing the complete operation by someone else.

[WillyPete]

Deaker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wbJSS8Gzvc

Considering the terrain the NZ guys operate in, I'm not surprised they hit turbulence.
(Warning: hunting and some blood)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo_7HP3bkIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xmg45cHEPQ

[212man]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xmg45cHEPQ

Animals still clearly alive at 2:06 and 4:00!

[Hughes500]

well at 5:20 in the second clip if that is not a snatch which shock loads everything I don't know what is. Not sure an R22 is built for that abuse. I would love to know how heavy the guys are plus the deer and how much fuel, would bet a lot that it is over MAUW

[[email protected]]

It's just f888ing appalling that these guys even have licences - do they even look at the RFM for performance before they get airborne on this sort of thing.

If this habitual exceedence of performance is widespread in NZ, no wonder there are concerns.

But in this case, don't blame the Robinsons, blame the idiots flying them. It's a helicopter, not a truck!

[Hughes500]

I think I need glasses as in the last clip I could have sworn the MP was over max a few times, then again I have just acquired my first set of glasses, perhaps it is an age thing ?

[megan]

Hughes500, I've never flown in NZ, and the only deer I've seen in the flesh have been prancing about on four legs.

[Hughes500]

Megan

Calm down never implied you had and my apologies if that is how it came across

[megan]

Hughes, if I were any calmer I'd probably be pronounced "dead". Trouble with the written word is the belief that communication has taken place. Made the post in light of 212man's comment, just to avoid any misapprehension.

[CYHeli]

Is it time to bring out articles like this to help pilots?
Rotor Torque Spring 2013 Martin and Simon.
I think the level of education is better is some places than others.

[[email protected]]

CY - that is an excellent article, which was clearly difficult to write for the author, but it brings out valuable lessons for pilots of all levels of ability and experience.

Military FS courses cover all those lessons and more, shame they aren't available to non-mil.

[FLY 7]

Is it time to bring out articles like this to help pilots?
Rotor Torque Spring 2013 Martin and Simon.
I think the level of education is better is some places than others.

I was never sure about that article. It attributes some justified blame, but is quite protective of the helicopter's design issues.

[Hughes500]

Fly

What do you expect tricky dicky thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread !

[[email protected]]

Perhaps it would have been more balanced to add that pretty much any other helicopter in the world wouldn't have broken up in those conditions - might have been uncomfortable - but not fatal.

[vaqueroaero]

I have a book called the The Chopper Boys and The Helicopter Hunters, written by Rex Forrester ISBN 0143018493 which is an account of the mayhem and anarchy of deer hunting in New Zealand 'back in the day'.

It's a very interesting read to say the least.

Just looked it up on Amazon, I had no idea it was worth what it is....

[TTSN]

Originally Posted by FLY 7

I was never sure about that article. It attributes some justified blame, but is quite protective of the helicopter's design issues.

Totally agree, the author of the report is far too close to Robinson to be objective about the design limitations of the aircraft. I'll except all the advice given in his detailed report but I can't help but feel there is an elephant in the room in relation to not mentioning the quite severe limitations caused by the rotor system design, in nearly all cases accidents seem to be concluded as the pilots fault. A design that requires a special pair of kid gloves to operate quite simply isn't the best design for that application. Endless special training and warnings about how they have to be flown is just circumnavigating a huge problem that is always there.

[Bell_ringer]

What I have often wondered is why Robinson seems to be doing so little to improve the rotor system? From articles written it would seem that little modern CFD analysis has been done to look at unexpected behavior.
Blaming pilots seems to be a get out of jail free card and perhaps starting to look deeper into the situation would almost appear like wrongdoing (The Trumparians do like to litigate).

The many iterations of blade design (and they don't seem to have perfected it) poses some questions about the state of their engineering and quality control and at the very least indicates some work is needed.

Too many good people have died in seemingly straight and level flight and placing the blame solely on the individual and not the machine seems misplaced.

The 66 is continuing the trend, possibly helped by the additional power, so it really is time to start doing something about it.

This isn't about knocking the machine, there is no denying it's contribution to rotorwing ops, training and making helo flying affordable and accessible.

[WillyPete]

What I have often wondered is why Robinson seems to be doing so little to improve the rotor system?

They can't make any changes.
Anything requiring recertification would likely mean that the aircraft would fail certification completely under current standards.

[Birdy2]

Iv asked this question on other forums without a responce, could someone here help please?

Interested to know, if someone can help, some head limits on Robbies.
How much stop to stop teetering range ( degrees) on the 22,44 and how much cyclic range, fore n aft, right to left?
Thanks in adavance.

[FlimsyFan]

Originally Posted by WillyPete

They can't make any changes.
Anything requiring recertification would likely mean that the aircraft would fail certification completely under current standards.

I'm disinclined to agree with you on that. The R66 was certified (relatively) recently, and as a completely new airframe had to undertake full certification rather than a modification / amendment to an existing one. If any of the certification requirements have changed since then, I'm not aware of it.

I think in the near future we will see development of a 3 or 4 bladed rotor system, certainly on the R66. This is something I was told directly by RHC that is now being looked at with some commitment.

As an R66 owner / operator, I am concerned about the in-flight break up issues. Attendance of the RHC Safety Course has certainly further increased the awareness of the causes of mast bumping, and must admit that when the machine is light (solo, under 60% fuel), I tend to fly around at 100kts IAS, which in the flatlands of the Midlands is probably very over cautious.

I love the machine to fly, and whilst acknowledging the risks, accept the responsibility to treat it extremely sympathetically in many circumstances to ensure its safety. I do, however, understand why so many people are quick to knock the Robbos, but ultimately, I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.