Robinson helicopters added to safety watchlist
Not really limitations - no limits on speed, angle of bank or AUM.
Which other manufacturer has to run a safety course for its helicopter?
Which other manufacturer has to run a safety course for its helicopter?
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Middle England
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Not really limitations - no limits on speed, angle of bank or AUM.
Which other manufacturer has to run a safety course for its helicopter?
Which other manufacturer has to run a safety course for its helicopter?
I think that’s a fair question, but I reckon it says more about the pilots than the helicopters.
There’s a very high percentage of amateur pilots in Robbis, often people not used to being told ‘No’, often people expecting a positive outcome in spite of the circumstances, and sometimes people flying an aircraft with other things on their mind.
I don’t have the facts to hand, but imagine the bigger, more expensive stuff has a pro behind the stick more often than not.
I have done the Robinson course and found it very enlightening. Much of the message is about Airmanship and is transferable across any platform. Remember that by far the biggest killer in Robbis, despite the mast bumping issue, is flight in DVE. Decision making by amateur pilots is frequently very, very poor. The nature of the course has most certainly underlined for me the risks that human factors will expose you to.
That said, I fear that the basic messages from the course are most needed by those who feel they don’t need to do the course in the first place. And yes, that includes the one about how distracting passengers can be
Robbie’s have mast bumping, AS350’s have servo transparency, jetrangers have LTE, etc., etc., etc..... Most machines have a weakness somewhere that we need to be vigilant with when operated at or beyond they’re designed envelope. I’ve spent a lot of time mustering in R22’s & shooting in R44’s, great machines even when pushed a bit harder than Frank intended.
Robinson tend to address pilot error with safety notices etc. whereas other manufacturers ignore it as it’s not their fault, credit to Robinson in a litigious world that they do that.
Robinson tend to address pilot error with safety notices etc. whereas other manufacturers ignore it as it’s not their fault, credit to Robinson in a litigious world that they do that.
Robbie’s have mast bumping, AS350’s have servo transparency, jetrangers have LTE,
Every teetering head is subject to mast bumping, but the R22 seems to have more of it due in part to factors mentioned above.
The 407 has limitations imposed on speed due to the force on the tailboom imposed by large pedal inputs (plus they had to create a pin to drop into the system to limit the physical displacement above certain speeds. (Sorry to be vague but it is 20 years since I flew a 407)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: earth
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OMG, another believer in the LTE Myth. But that is another matter completely.
Every teetering head is subject to mast bumping, but the R22 seems to have more of it due in part to factors mentioned above.
The 407 has limitations imposed on speed due to the force on the tailboom imposed by large pedal inputs (plus they had to create a pin to drop into the system to limit the physical displacement above certain speeds. (Sorry to be vague but it is 20 years since I flew a 407)
Every teetering head is subject to mast bumping, but the R22 seems to have more of it due in part to factors mentioned above.
The 407 has limitations imposed on speed due to the force on the tailboom imposed by large pedal inputs (plus they had to create a pin to drop into the system to limit the physical displacement above certain speeds. (Sorry to be vague but it is 20 years since I flew a 407)
Quite the contrary, I believe LTE stands for “ lack of training & experience”.
You missed my point entirely, none of the above mentioned issues are a phenomenon which sneaks up on you when least expected, they are all very well known & predictable aerodynamic functions.
You missed my point entirely, none of the above mentioned issues are a phenomenon which sneaks up on you when least expected, they are all very well known & predictable aerodynamic functions.
When an older Bell has come short because of issues with the feet, tail or somewhere in between the evidence has clearly determined what the cause was.
The same applies to the flying bus and it's hydraulics or indeed any other non-RHC aircraft.
The crux of the issue is that for a very long period of time (and it continues today) a Robbie comes to grief midair, showering the countryside with pieces and the events leading to the accident are generally not easily identified or identified at all.
The goto point then becomes wind or turbulence and by default, therefor, the pilot. This makes the Robbie faithful comfortable as it would never happen to them, they are much more experienced and capable than those that wilfully ignore all the warnings.
If you look at enough cases what you find is that these accidents also occur with experienced pilots and in weather that couldn't be shown to be rough.
All the other manufacturers account for for approximately two thirds of the hours flow, many operated in far less mundane environments (mustering certainly isn't mundane but those accidents tend to involve becoming one with a tree or wire) and with higher seating capacity yet they account for the smaller percentage of fatal accidents.
The Robbie's apparent flaws are nothing new, so the risks shouldn't be anything new to those that fly them.
The Robbie was made to be cheap, it is what made it affordable to train on and accessible to many smaller operations who could simply not afford anything better.
Given the choice today I would rather be trained on a Cabri, which has recently been stealing Robinson's lunch money. Hopefully they get a 4-seater going, that could really create a few ripples in the piston waters.
The same applies to the flying bus and it's hydraulics or indeed any other non-RHC aircraft.
The crux of the issue is that for a very long period of time (and it continues today) a Robbie comes to grief midair, showering the countryside with pieces and the events leading to the accident are generally not easily identified or identified at all.
The goto point then becomes wind or turbulence and by default, therefor, the pilot. This makes the Robbie faithful comfortable as it would never happen to them, they are much more experienced and capable than those that wilfully ignore all the warnings.
If you look at enough cases what you find is that these accidents also occur with experienced pilots and in weather that couldn't be shown to be rough.
All the other manufacturers account for for approximately two thirds of the hours flow, many operated in far less mundane environments (mustering certainly isn't mundane but those accidents tend to involve becoming one with a tree or wire) and with higher seating capacity yet they account for the smaller percentage of fatal accidents.
The Robbie's apparent flaws are nothing new, so the risks shouldn't be anything new to those that fly them.
The Robbie was made to be cheap, it is what made it affordable to train on and accessible to many smaller operations who could simply not afford anything better.
Given the choice today I would rather be trained on a Cabri, which has recently been stealing Robinson's lunch money. Hopefully they get a 4-seater going, that could really create a few ripples in the piston waters.
Last edited by Bell_ringer; 9th Apr 2018 at 05:35. Reason: typos
Bell ringer
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gauteng and in the bush catching problem animals or mining diamonds
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is that really so? And what about the envelope restrictions that at some point were added to the AS350 Squirrel POH, meant to help pilots to avoid, detect, or get themselves out of hydraulics failure induced by a combination of high speed, high collective and cyclic pull? It is being discussed as we speak in a parallel thread right here in the Rotorheads Forum: AS350 Astar/Squirrel
I guess these are in itself serious limitations. At the same time, it seems quite possible for most normal missions to stay within the limited envelope and to never encounter the hydraulics problem. Clearly, Robinson is then not the only helicopter with design-related envelope limitations.
It is interesting to see that while here you say only Robinson had to limit the flight envelope, you are the main contributor to the AS350 limitations related discussion in the "AS350" thread. Both in one day.
I guess what we see here is actually quite normal. I could think of different, specific limitations applying to respective other types of helicopter.
I guess these are in itself serious limitations. At the same time, it seems quite possible for most normal missions to stay within the limited envelope and to never encounter the hydraulics problem. Clearly, Robinson is then not the only helicopter with design-related envelope limitations.
It is interesting to see that while here you say only Robinson had to limit the flight envelope, you are the main contributor to the AS350 limitations related discussion in the "AS350" thread. Both in one day.
I guess what we see here is actually quite normal. I could think of different, specific limitations applying to respective other types of helicopter.
The early models experienced incidences of tail rotor strikes eventually believed to be a result of a combination of excessive pedal usage, speed etc.
The solution was a pedal stop relay which are fitted to all of the 407's.
VNE reduction was temporary and it operates today at the 140kts VNE that it was released with.
Bell didn't just blame their pilots, they engineered a solution to the problem.
It is also worth remembering that these issues were found on what was, then, a young aircraft (late 90's) compared to ongoing issues with a family of aircraft that were introduced in the late 70's, or early 90's for the 44.
I guess what the 'fraternity' is saying is that ALL 'normal' helicopters which had their achilles heels - have been either engineered out or safeguarded in such a way that a particular model continues to be produced and the symptoms rarely if ever manifest themselves again.
BUT the Robbo has been with us now for 38 years
and STILL it has that allegedly inherent ability to KILL mostly unsuspecting pilots but also some very highly qualified pilots due predominently because of its mast bumping inadequacies.
And the reason why 'Frank' can/t/won't engineer the problem out is because it would no longer be a Robbo! It would cost a lot more and behave differently - which would take away the reason for its existence.
Build 'em cheap, sell 'em cheap and hope the attrition rate is accepted by industry (which it obviously is, in most operating areas).
I can't think of another manufacturer who has his own Safety Course - to bring the inadequacies of the aircraft customers are flying around in - to their attention.
I buy a cheap and cheerful car - I don't want to go back to school to understand that what I bought is 'maybe' a handful in certain circumstances and the wheels might come off .....especially when my family are involved.
BUT the Robbo has been with us now for 38 years
and STILL it has that allegedly inherent ability to KILL mostly unsuspecting pilots but also some very highly qualified pilots due predominently because of its mast bumping inadequacies.And the reason why 'Frank' can/t/won't engineer the problem out is because it would no longer be a Robbo! It would cost a lot more and behave differently - which would take away the reason for its existence.
Build 'em cheap, sell 'em cheap and hope the attrition rate is accepted by industry (which it obviously is, in most operating areas).
I can't think of another manufacturer who has his own Safety Course - to bring the inadequacies of the aircraft customers are flying around in - to their attention.
I buy a cheap and cheerful car - I don't want to go back to school to understand that what I bought is 'maybe' a handful in certain circumstances and the wheels might come off .....especially when my family are involved.
