EC225 crash near Bergen, Norway April 2016
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But again, none of this has been confirmed by the investigators? So...rumour?
We have crafted complex methods in efforts to prevent these tragedies but somehow no matter what we do there is something that happens to trip us up in achieving that goal.
Risk compensation
The "offshore business" is high risk by its nature and probably always will be.
Some may have forgotten.
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Twist & Shout
“I think it's pretty unemotional and factual, that at this time there is an unexplained catastrophic failure involving EC225. (Perhaps it would be irrational to be happy to fly an EC225 under the current circumstances, even for say, SAR.)”
T&S. Can I assume your meaning of “happy to fly an EC225” is an expression of your accceptance to fly the aircraft whilst not being comfortable with so doing ? Or vice versa ??
I believe there are three groups of EC225 pilots out there. Those who will fly it on SAR , those who will not fly it at all (or at least until a definitive cause is established) and those who are as yet undecided (or who are in a position where they do not have to decide right away).
I am personally in the latter group and am extremely conflicted about the issue.
Unfortunately the various AUTHORITIES/COMPANIES/MILITARY are in disagreement as to flying the aircraft. All have a different outlook.
As in :-
1. Nil commercial flights
2. Nil passenger flights but SAR is ok
3. Nil flights what so ever
A pilot normally assesses a myriad of factors before he accepts a flight. If he cannot come up with tics in all the boxes then it is a NO GO.
My question is , how can any pilot put tics in all the boxes when there is still an unknown as to whether it was a MAINTENANCE failure or an OEM failure irrespective of what category of flight it is. How can any AUTHORITY/COMPANY/MILITARY condone the release of the aircraft given the above unknown.
Category of flight is irrelevant. Empty ? SAR ? Makes no difference! At the very least there are still “two joes” sitting up front flying a machine with a potential “unexplained catastrophic” fault.
“I think it's pretty unemotional and factual, that at this time there is an unexplained catastrophic failure involving EC225. (Perhaps it would be irrational to be happy to fly an EC225 under the current circumstances, even for say, SAR.)”
T&S. Can I assume your meaning of “happy to fly an EC225” is an expression of your accceptance to fly the aircraft whilst not being comfortable with so doing ? Or vice versa ??
I believe there are three groups of EC225 pilots out there. Those who will fly it on SAR , those who will not fly it at all (or at least until a definitive cause is established) and those who are as yet undecided (or who are in a position where they do not have to decide right away).
I am personally in the latter group and am extremely conflicted about the issue.
Unfortunately the various AUTHORITIES/COMPANIES/MILITARY are in disagreement as to flying the aircraft. All have a different outlook.
As in :-
1. Nil commercial flights
2. Nil passenger flights but SAR is ok
3. Nil flights what so ever
A pilot normally assesses a myriad of factors before he accepts a flight. If he cannot come up with tics in all the boxes then it is a NO GO.
My question is , how can any pilot put tics in all the boxes when there is still an unknown as to whether it was a MAINTENANCE failure or an OEM failure irrespective of what category of flight it is. How can any AUTHORITY/COMPANY/MILITARY condone the release of the aircraft given the above unknown.
Category of flight is irrelevant. Empty ? SAR ? Makes no difference! At the very least there are still “two joes” sitting up front flying a machine with a potential “unexplained catastrophic” fault.
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You just have to stand under the rotor while it's running to know there are some bad Harmonics going on there somewhere.
That in itself can only lead to fatigue issues in the long term.
Fix that terrible Kidney bashing beat the piece of Junk produces and you might have a half decent helicopter
That in itself can only lead to fatigue issues in the long term.
Fix that terrible Kidney bashing beat the piece of Junk produces and you might have a half decent helicopter
How can any AUTHORITY/COMPANY/MILITARY condone the release of the aircraft given the above unknown
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Might the tripod solution and the retention of the bolts by washer and nappy pins be fundamentally a bad design? Why does an office chair have five legs and why circlips have been invented being more resistant to axial forces and to wear by vibrations? A Cotter Pin 'Fokkernadel' is not constructed to transfer larger forces and the washer is like a punching tool.
Please see https://www.yumpu.com/xx/document/vi.../fokker-nadeln
Please see https://www.yumpu.com/xx/document/vi.../fokker-nadeln
Last edited by AW009; 10th May 2016 at 18:45.
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The other misconception is with regards the inspection process. You may be looking at it from a UK point of view which make your assertions spot on but in Norway engineers can Dupe their own work so an independent inspection is never required under their legislation. This may seem ridiculous to many on here but it is how it is.
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three rods all of which are required to work at the same time for a successful result is a long way from the redundancy concept
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Might the tripod solution and the retention of the bolts by washer and nappy pins be fundamentally a bad design? Why does an office chair have five legs and why circlips have been invented being more resistant to axial forces and to wear by vibrations? A Cotter Pin 'Fokkernadel' is not constructed to transfer larger forces and the washer is like a punching tool.
Please see https://www.yumpu.com/xx/document/vi.../fokker-nadeln
Please see https://www.yumpu.com/xx/document/vi.../fokker-nadeln
Three legs provide perfect stability. Have you never been in a restaurant at a table which rocks from side to side? Chances are it had four legs. Remove one leg and it will be rock steady.
Seriously, at the end of the day, any helicopter has to have a system which suspends the fuselage from the rotor head. The three support rod system has been in use for decades without problem. If it is designed, fitted and maintained correctly and there are no faults with the materials then it as as good as you will get.
Don't forget the barbecue plate is also a stressed component.
Sorry....not Risk Compensation at all.
That would suggest becoming immune to there risk over time.
What I am talking about is Mr. Murphy and all of his Cousins that constitute the Human Being that is the weak link in the Safety Process.
There is no accounting for how dedicated some folks can be at thwarting the best designed set of procedures, policies, and practices....as often by sheer randomness as much as with malice aforethought.
The rest of your referenced concepts also hold true.
That would suggest becoming immune to there risk over time.
What I am talking about is Mr. Murphy and all of his Cousins that constitute the Human Being that is the weak link in the Safety Process.
There is no accounting for how dedicated some folks can be at thwarting the best designed set of procedures, policies, and practices....as often by sheer randomness as much as with malice aforethought.
The rest of your referenced concepts also hold true.
@roundwego: How many fasteners attach the BBQ plate to the transmission deck?
Also: just FYI, three of the four office chairs in my house, and most of the office chairs in the office where I work, have five rolling wheels. It appears to have become a standard among certain office furniture manufacturers.
For lowfat: link was very informative/useful.
Also: just FYI, three of the four office chairs in my house, and most of the office chairs in the office where I work, have five rolling wheels. It appears to have become a standard among certain office furniture manufacturers.
For lowfat: link was very informative/useful.
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three rods all of which are required to work at the same time for a successful result is a long way from the redundancy concept
For example, there are numerous components on a rotorcraft, such as the main rotor shaft, performing a function designated as "critical", which have no fault tolerance (or redundancy), and the failure of which would likely be "catastrophic". But it is acceptable if a catastrophic structural failure of the component can be shown to be an "extremely improbable" event by FMEA. Of course, this is based on the fact the FMEA takes into consideration that the component will receive special analysis (fracture, fatigue, etc) during design, special QA processes during manufacture, and special monitoring/inspections during service.
this is based on the fact the FMEA takes into consideration that the component will receive special analysis (fracture, fatigue, etc) during design, special QA processes during manufacture, and special monitoring/inspections during service.
Sasless,
Depending on who you talk to coming to unsavoury and unfortunate end hasn't changed in the UK
since the 13th century!
Depending on who you talk to coming to unsavoury and unfortunate end hasn't changed in the UK
since the 13th century!
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The other misconception is with regards the inspection process. You may be looking at it from a UK point of view which make your assertions spot on but in Norway engineers can Dupe their own work so an independent inspection is never required under their legislation. This may seem ridiculous to many on here but it is how it is.
But as many have said on here we are all just listening to rumours and it may be a long time before we know the correct details.
My thoughts are with the families of those affected by this tragedy.
But as many have said on here we are all just listening to rumours and it may be a long time before we know the correct details.
My thoughts are with the families of those affected by this tragedy.
Really? Norway applies the same Airworthiness rules as the rest of Europe, and both Part M and 145 require independent checks and critical task error management philosophies. Having the same guy doing his own duplicate inspections doesn't seem to achieve the same safety level.