EC225 crash near Bergen, Norway April 2016
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OnePerRev
On the matter of spin, you will no doubt remember your very last post:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/456...ml#post8891952
In response to your question:
You said:
Black Hawk experience was used in justification in the S-92A certification according to TSB-Canada in their report on another preventable accident.
On the matter of spin, you will no doubt remember your very last post:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/456...ml#post8891952
In response to your question:
If the Blackhawk is so good, then why don't Sikorsky sell them to Civil Operators?
Late eighties they had that idea, the operators did not like the short ceiling (Hawk had to packup transportability reqt). Make it a "fat hawk" they all said.
It is now known as the S-92A.
It is now known as the S-92A.
Not sure, but was it good enough to get those people home?
As aviation professionals across specialties and companies, we need to be thinking about the next hours more than the previous. The O&G experts can choose to interrogate the methodology and standards, many have. Super Puma can be safe I am sure, but after more is learned, appropriately it may require adjustments to the airworthiness limitations, be they replacement times, inspections, design improvements, etc. Not trying to jump the gun at all, we can't yet see what happened. As an industry, we should be prepared to learn from it though.
As aviation professionals across specialties and companies, we need to be thinking about the next hours more than the previous. The O&G experts can choose to interrogate the methodology and standards, many have. Super Puma can be safe I am sure, but after more is learned, appropriately it may require adjustments to the airworthiness limitations, be they replacement times, inspections, design improvements, etc. Not trying to jump the gun at all, we can't yet see what happened. As an industry, we should be prepared to learn from it though.
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Interesting how the positive Spin on accident statistics separate the new model from the predecessors, however the certification basis relies on this model being a variant, and certified to older standards.
The new standards would clearly make the main shaft a principle structural element, one that would require fatigue substantiation by testing. So the two ditchings would not have been a surprise that the finite element model incorrectly predicted the stresses. And how is the rest of the shaft? Sometimes if you simply make a part stronger where it failed, you just chase the failure somewhere else. Full scale fatigue testing based on measured loads would have prevented those issues. What else was missed in the design assumptions? The authorities should question any other PSE failure mode that was certified by Finite element.
Also, I may have misunderstood, but I recall the statement that AB increased quality inspections to one in every four, as this was an important part. How does one ask to fly on the inspected one?
-many predictions and speculations on this site, here is mine: The facts will show that this accident was preventable. Most are. Never easy to swallow that truth.
The new standards would clearly make the main shaft a principle structural element, one that would require fatigue substantiation by testing. So the two ditchings would not have been a surprise that the finite element model incorrectly predicted the stresses. And how is the rest of the shaft? Sometimes if you simply make a part stronger where it failed, you just chase the failure somewhere else. Full scale fatigue testing based on measured loads would have prevented those issues. What else was missed in the design assumptions? The authorities should question any other PSE failure mode that was certified by Finite element.
Also, I may have misunderstood, but I recall the statement that AB increased quality inspections to one in every four, as this was an important part. How does one ask to fly on the inspected one?
-many predictions and speculations on this site, here is mine: The facts will show that this accident was preventable. Most are. Never easy to swallow that truth.
Will AH be able to skip this unprecedented situation an save the 225? After all it's basically a 30 year old tuned type.
What would it happen if we saw a video of a B737 falling down after a sudden break on both wings?
Furthermore, other OEMs and lessing companies are storaging helicopters from cancelled requests. They should be ready to deliver and willing to offer good deals to reduce their stocks and get a position in the market.
It shouldn't be so dramatic at this point to say goodbye to the 225.
If that happens. Only S92 or AW189 may take over controls.
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ALTERNATIVES?
Fill in the blanks.
S-92 - ...a sheat and too expensive (impossible to take full fuel full pax) this is for this reason the 225 come back on fisrt place after the drop of oil barrel....
AW189 - ...the two of bristow was park and he don't use it (a sheat)
EC175 - ...certainly a alternative but limit to 14pax with "confort" but wait for svow certification
S-61 - ...a T-REX with a rotor
Mi-171 - ...WAHOOOUUUU
AW101 - ...A bad copy of NH-90 but why not why not 'depend of the price (a 225 is 23Meuros)
NH90 - ...Never certificate for civilian, you can buy 10 H175 with the price of 1 NH90
I read something about L2 (i don't know where) but Bond use 4 L2 for pax and 2 L2 for SAR... and i'm not surprised if the L2 return to flight during this week....
For the questions about the H215e the main gear box is the same of 332L1 or 332L2...
About the MGB of NH90 we don't talk about the same thing for the design and the size...
And for the return of 225 if this tragedy result of maintenance problem you see certainly again this aircraft in the sky of north sea because is certainly the more economic with the best performance...you can take off with full pax full fuel and with the additional tank (it was alone a this price).....Remember actually with the low price of barrel all the company search the services with Lowest cost....
Fill in the blanks.
S-92 - ...a sheat and too expensive (impossible to take full fuel full pax) this is for this reason the 225 come back on fisrt place after the drop of oil barrel....
AW189 - ...the two of bristow was park and he don't use it (a sheat)
EC175 - ...certainly a alternative but limit to 14pax with "confort" but wait for svow certification
S-61 - ...a T-REX with a rotor
Mi-171 - ...WAHOOOUUUU
AW101 - ...A bad copy of NH-90 but why not why not 'depend of the price (a 225 is 23Meuros)
NH90 - ...Never certificate for civilian, you can buy 10 H175 with the price of 1 NH90
I read something about L2 (i don't know where) but Bond use 4 L2 for pax and 2 L2 for SAR... and i'm not surprised if the L2 return to flight during this week....
For the questions about the H215e the main gear box is the same of 332L1 or 332L2...
About the MGB of NH90 we don't talk about the same thing for the design and the size...
And for the return of 225 if this tragedy result of maintenance problem you see certainly again this aircraft in the sky of north sea because is certainly the more economic with the best performance...you can take off with full pax full fuel and with the additional tank (it was alone a this price).....Remember actually with the low price of barrel all the company search the services with Lowest cost....
Zalt, very good digging...
All companies must rely on history to make design assumptions, S-92A no different, utilizing some very proven capability of the H-60. Of course, H-60 fatigue methodology exceeded commercial standards at the time.
You actually support the argument I am making. The Newfoundland tragedy was preventable on many levels, nuff said. What was done about it is a testament to the point about learning. The short solution was shown to be good enough, but further improvements were then made too, after re-evaluation of some of the assumptions.
To be clear, not bashing here.. it is a discussion about best industry practices, and always looking to improve.
All companies must rely on history to make design assumptions, S-92A no different, utilizing some very proven capability of the H-60. Of course, H-60 fatigue methodology exceeded commercial standards at the time.
You actually support the argument I am making. The Newfoundland tragedy was preventable on many levels, nuff said. What was done about it is a testament to the point about learning. The short solution was shown to be good enough, but further improvements were then made too, after re-evaluation of some of the assumptions.
To be clear, not bashing here.. it is a discussion about best industry practices, and always looking to improve.
I must admit, I have wondered why the aviation industry has let the oil giants drive down costs so much. If we all stuck together and agreed not to drop prices pre 2014 levels then what are they going to do? Ferry everyone by boat and be done with helicopters or pay a little more for the helicopters?
You couldn't collude to fix prices in any way under Anti-Competitive legislation and the last time there became a duopoly in the NS to try to regain margin, the green 'n' yellow just sponsored the new Bond to come in and shake it up again. Same in the SNS with the smaller operators. There's always someone willing to do it for €x if the customer wants it.
Mitchaa, re:
Available in July: Deepwater Horizon: A Systems Analysis of the Macondo Disaster
Earl Boebert
James M. Blossom
Foreword by Peter G. Neumannhttp://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674545236
I can point you to a ton more articles, we are lucky there hasn't been another piper Alpha, that's how bad things are getting out there.
Earl Boebert
James M. Blossom
Foreword by Peter G. Neumannhttp://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674545236
Well, for what it's worth (and my speculations are usually worth nothing) I see in the close-u rotor picture the intact and pin-less Load Stay as the main issue.
All the other breakages on the Hub Assy may be symptoms of a major control and torque disprution causing blades to clash and flail breaking pitch links and scissor links and the Hub Assy to wrench from the gearbox. As the Stay is obviously still connected to the Hub Assy and apparently 'straight', unlike the other assemblies, I believe this shows that this detached first. Possibly due to an unsecured lower pin moving out of the lugs.
In the picture of airlifting the recovered head, I believe the shaft is very apparent and the bell housing not fully apparent. I also believe the stress of taking the weight has sheared through the bell housing, perhaps ripping off under the bolted top flange.
Pure observation and speculation for which I am about to get heavily criticised....
My apologies to all involved in this tragedy for approaching this thread so coldly.
All the other breakages on the Hub Assy may be symptoms of a major control and torque disprution causing blades to clash and flail breaking pitch links and scissor links and the Hub Assy to wrench from the gearbox. As the Stay is obviously still connected to the Hub Assy and apparently 'straight', unlike the other assemblies, I believe this shows that this detached first. Possibly due to an unsecured lower pin moving out of the lugs.
In the picture of airlifting the recovered head, I believe the shaft is very apparent and the bell housing not fully apparent. I also believe the stress of taking the weight has sheared through the bell housing, perhaps ripping off under the bolted top flange.
Pure observation and speculation for which I am about to get heavily criticised....
My apologies to all involved in this tragedy for approaching this thread so coldly.
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Well, for what it's worth (and my speculations are usually worth nothing) I see in the close-u rotor picture the intact and pin-less Load Stay as the main issue.
All the other breakages on the Hub Assy may be symptoms of a major control and torque disprution causing blades to clash and flail breaking pitch links and scissor links and the Hub Assy to wrench from the gearbox. As the Stay is obviously still connected to the Hub Assy and apparently 'straight', unlike the other assemblies, I believe this shows that this detached first. Possibly due to an unsecured lower pin moving out of the lugs.
In the picture of airlifting the recovered head, I believe the shaft is very apparent and the bell housing not fully apparent. I also believe the stress of taking the weight has sheared through the bell housing, perhaps ripping off under the bolted top flange.
Pure observation and speculation for which I am about to get heavily criticised....
My apologies to all involved in this tragedy for approaching this thread so coldly.
Lower suspension bar retaining hardware appears intact, have another go.
All the other breakages on the Hub Assy may be symptoms of a major control and torque disprution causing blades to clash and flail breaking pitch links and scissor links and the Hub Assy to wrench from the gearbox. As the Stay is obviously still connected to the Hub Assy and apparently 'straight', unlike the other assemblies, I believe this shows that this detached first. Possibly due to an unsecured lower pin moving out of the lugs.
In the picture of airlifting the recovered head, I believe the shaft is very apparent and the bell housing not fully apparent. I also believe the stress of taking the weight has sheared through the bell housing, perhaps ripping off under the bolted top flange.
Pure observation and speculation for which I am about to get heavily criticised....
My apologies to all involved in this tragedy for approaching this thread so coldly.
Lower suspension bar retaining hardware appears intact, have another go.
Mitchaa,
That's one view. The fact right now is that just about every operator in the North Sea is losing money. The UKCS is one of the highest cost oil basins in the world. The average wage offshore is in excess of £60,000 a year: 1.5 times the UK average. Most people who think about it dispassionately, or who have worked internationally, find the UKCS cost base, work ethic, productivity and remuneration package (both onshore and offshore) a joke.
Over the last few years the UKCS, buffered by $100 oil, has not controlled its cost base. It has got fat (in many cases literally) and lazy. Safety (as a proxy for terms and conditions) has been a constant refrain. That now needs to change. The oil industry is not a registered charity with the likes of Wood Group employees as the primary beneficiary.
To survive, the UKCS has to take on the vested interests you seem to represent. If it doesn't, hone your decommissioning skills. There won't be anything else!
That's one view. The fact right now is that just about every operator in the North Sea is losing money. The UKCS is one of the highest cost oil basins in the world. The average wage offshore is in excess of £60,000 a year: 1.5 times the UK average. Most people who think about it dispassionately, or who have worked internationally, find the UKCS cost base, work ethic, productivity and remuneration package (both onshore and offshore) a joke.
Over the last few years the UKCS, buffered by $100 oil, has not controlled its cost base. It has got fat (in many cases literally) and lazy. Safety (as a proxy for terms and conditions) has been a constant refrain. That now needs to change. The oil industry is not a registered charity with the likes of Wood Group employees as the primary beneficiary.
To survive, the UKCS has to take on the vested interests you seem to represent. If it doesn't, hone your decommissioning skills. There won't be anything else!
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175 is 16 pax
ALTERNATIVES?
Fill in the blanks.
S-92 - ...a sheat and too expensive (impossible to take full fuel full pax) this is for this reason the 225 come back on fisrt place after the drop of oil barrel....
AW189 - ...the two of bristow was park and he don't use it (a sheat)
EC175 - ...certainly a alternative but limit to 14pax with "confort" but wait for svow certification
S-61 - ...a T-REX with a rotor
Mi-171 - ...WAHOOOUUUU
AW101 - ...A bad copy of NH-90 but why not why not 'depend of the price (a 225 is 23Meuros)
NH90 - ...Never certificate for civilian, you can buy 10 H175 with the price of 1 NH90
I read something about L2 (i don't know where) but Bond use 4 L2 for pax and 2 L2 for SAR... and i'm not surprised if the L2 return to flight during this week....
For the questions about the H215e the main gear box is the same of 332L1 or 332L2...
About the MGB of NH90 we don't talk about the same thing for the design and the size...
And for the return of 225 if this tragedy result of maintenance problem you see certainly again this aircraft in the sky of north sea because is certainly the more economic with the best performance...you can take off with full pax full fuel and with the additional tank (it was alone a this price).....Remember actually with the low price of barrel all the company search the services with Lowest cost....
Fill in the blanks.
S-92 - ...a sheat and too expensive (impossible to take full fuel full pax) this is for this reason the 225 come back on fisrt place after the drop of oil barrel....
AW189 - ...the two of bristow was park and he don't use it (a sheat)
EC175 - ...certainly a alternative but limit to 14pax with "confort" but wait for svow certification
S-61 - ...a T-REX with a rotor
Mi-171 - ...WAHOOOUUUU
AW101 - ...A bad copy of NH-90 but why not why not 'depend of the price (a 225 is 23Meuros)
NH90 - ...Never certificate for civilian, you can buy 10 H175 with the price of 1 NH90
I read something about L2 (i don't know where) but Bond use 4 L2 for pax and 2 L2 for SAR... and i'm not surprised if the L2 return to flight during this week....
For the questions about the H215e the main gear box is the same of 332L1 or 332L2...
About the MGB of NH90 we don't talk about the same thing for the design and the size...
And for the return of 225 if this tragedy result of maintenance problem you see certainly again this aircraft in the sky of north sea because is certainly the more economic with the best performance...you can take off with full pax full fuel and with the additional tank (it was alone a this price).....Remember actually with the low price of barrel all the company search the services with Lowest cost....
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SIN 3031-S-00
"Considering the additional information gathered during the last 48 hours, Airbus Helicopters’ decision, at this stage, is to not suspend flights of any nature for the EC225LP."
"Considering the additional information gathered during the last 48 hours, Airbus Helicopters’ decision, at this stage, is to not suspend flights of any nature for the EC225LP."
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I'm not sure operating in NS make mandatory to seat pax along emergency exits.
I think anything heavier then 12T and a DV of more than 22 is useless in OS.
AW189: are they in use for SAR, aren't they?
H175: as well as the 139, isn't too light to compete with a 9-10 ton class helicopter as the 225 is?
Spectral,
Why do you voice the AW189 to be a sheat (a merde en francois)??
And BTW if including the H175, why not the 139 (7 Ton) which is a well matured aircraft after 10+ years operational life and everybody flying and operating it is well use to his plus and minus?
Cheers
I think anything heavier then 12T and a DV of more than 22 is useless in OS.
AW189: are they in use for SAR, aren't they?
H175: as well as the 139, isn't too light to compete with a 9-10 ton class helicopter as the 225 is?
Spectral,
Why do you voice the AW189 to be a sheat (a merde en francois)??
And BTW if including the H175, why not the 139 (7 Ton) which is a well matured aircraft after 10+ years operational life and everybody flying and operating it is well use to his plus and minus?
Cheers
Last edited by maeroda; 1st May 2016 at 22:29.
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That sounds like a engineering/tech related cause of the accident?
Why would they otherwise decide to not suspend flights in the 225 at this early stage after the accident?
I think it's strange to come with that kind of statement this early after such a disaster....
They must be 100% sure with that statement.
Why would they otherwise decide to not suspend flights in the 225 at this early stage after the accident?
I think it's strange to come with that kind of statement this early after such a disaster....
They must be 100% sure with that statement.
A way of stating confidence in the product without giving away any insight.
At this stage, people involved in the investigation have no doubt gotten a handle on what parts were present, missing, broken, etc.
The next questions are the hardest, establishing the "why", and the nature. Broken could be because it was weak by defect, fatigue, overload. But missing pieces tell a different story, and require different solution. In that sense, even if found to be 100% related to maintenance, it would not be unheard of to recommend a re-inspect to the existing criteria. Most operators would already be doing it on their own.
At this stage, people involved in the investigation have no doubt gotten a handle on what parts were present, missing, broken, etc.
The next questions are the hardest, establishing the "why", and the nature. Broken could be because it was weak by defect, fatigue, overload. But missing pieces tell a different story, and require different solution. In that sense, even if found to be 100% related to maintenance, it would not be unheard of to recommend a re-inspect to the existing criteria. Most operators would already be doing it on their own.