Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub: final AAIB report
Ah. A conspiracy theorist.
Pray tell what killed them, airpolice.?
Fuel ran out. Dave was left hi and dry with no Nr. Maybe he reacted too late. Maybe he was ill. Maybe one of the crew was suicidal.
Maybe the a/c was tampered with.
But the police keeping quiet over this? Is that what you're saying?
Pray tell what killed them, airpolice.?
Fuel ran out. Dave was left hi and dry with no Nr. Maybe he reacted too late. Maybe he was ill. Maybe one of the crew was suicidal.
Maybe the a/c was tampered with.
But the police keeping quiet over this? Is that what you're saying?
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Think the inferred point is that it didn't run out of fuel........the fuel was in the wrong tank to supply the engines.........result being the same..The engines stopped when they no longer had fuel flow. Most uniformed would not see the difference.
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One thing I can’t understand is that our towns and cities a full of CCTV cameras yet I haven’t seen one frame of footage of the helicopter as it flew over the city and descended towards The Clutha from any CCTV cameras, security cameras or from punters cameras.
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KNiEVEL77
You haven't searched hard enough. There are pictures published but they do not show enough detail to satisfy the purient interests of the tabloids. A dot of light falling from the sky in the distance doesn't hold the same interest as close up shots of the tail and rotor blades sticking out of The Clutha roof.
CCTV cameras are primarily focused on areas of interest on the ground where most crime is committed. Passers by would have no more than a few seconds to recognise a developing situation, get their camera or phone out and try to obtain a photo or video.
You haven't searched hard enough. There are pictures published but they do not show enough detail to satisfy the purient interests of the tabloids. A dot of light falling from the sky in the distance doesn't hold the same interest as close up shots of the tail and rotor blades sticking out of The Clutha roof.
CCTV cameras are primarily focused on areas of interest on the ground where most crime is committed. Passers by would have no more than a few seconds to recognise a developing situation, get their camera or phone out and try to obtain a photo or video.
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There is of course the “other option” that none of you armchair investigators have considered.
Dave accepted a task when the aircraft was almost out of fuel. 3 experienced crew accepted a task with nothing in the tanks?
There is a known problem that the fuel system shows permanent full supply tanks plus a bit in the main, if the sensors were water contaminated. When the fleet were tested LOTS failed.
Care to consider he was looking at 100+kg on the gauges when the engines stopped? Care to consider the unguarded switches got knocked during the recovery ops?
There’s always more to armchair assess
Dave accepted a task when the aircraft was almost out of fuel. 3 experienced crew accepted a task with nothing in the tanks?
There is a known problem that the fuel system shows permanent full supply tanks plus a bit in the main, if the sensors were water contaminated. When the fleet were tested LOTS failed.
Care to consider he was looking at 100+kg on the gauges when the engines stopped? Care to consider the unguarded switches got knocked during the recovery ops?
There’s always more to armchair assess
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Not explaining away, don’t second guess me. Just saying there is MUCH more to consider than what is allowed in the accident report. Let’s see what police Scotland think.......
This.
Plus being over hostile (urban) terrain.
And in a twin autorotation due to engine out is not a standard maneuver that will be in the pilot's mind at every second.
This while possibly being busy analysing the strange indications and seemingly wrong error messages.
Human brain isn't terribly good at parallel processing or rational re- prioritising while being under heavy strain.
In the given circumstances it is not too difficult to imagine how things could have unfolded in the way they did.
Yes it would be comforting to think that such a situation should be easy to deal with. But in real life at night over a city with lots of distractions, unprepared and surprising with seemingly illogical/contradictory information flowing in at a high rate that needs a lot of brain space to decipher it surely is not.
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The aircraft had fuel on board, but not in the correct configuration (wrong tanks) Thats why the engines stopped. Why no emergency procedures were implemented are unknown but that facts are there was fuel starvation and the lack of fuel was annunciated to the pilot several times, which was acknowledged by him.
So, a faulty display caused by contaminated sensors. All we need to explain away is not reacting to the warnings (by landing) and the failure to land in one piece once the fires went out, as well as the airborne time. Sounds straightforward... oh..... no..... not straightforward..... the other thing.
Why would anyone ignore the low fuel warning sound, on the basis that the system is "known to be faulty", but trust the same "known to be faulty" system when it shows fuel remaining on the display?
None of which we will ever get to the bottom of.
Why would anyone ignore the low fuel warning sound, on the basis that the system is "known to be faulty", but trust the same "known to be faulty" system when it shows fuel remaining on the display?
None of which we will ever get to the bottom of.
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Tom, incorrect the crash was actually a symptom of mishandling fuel and not carrying out emergency landing procedures.
The root cause was zero fuel in the supply tanks. Very simple facts.
"Running out of fuel in a Helicopter, should not mean that people have to die" Possibly not, but it doesn't really improve your chances of living whilst flying at night over a large urban area.....
The root cause was zero fuel in the supply tanks. Very simple facts.
"Running out of fuel in a Helicopter, should not mean that people have to die" Possibly not, but it doesn't really improve your chances of living whilst flying at night over a large urban area.....
I have thought since early on, this was all about the failure to land. The fuel thing is just a symptom.
The public understand that running out of petrol at 70MPH in the motorway is not necessarily followed by an impact with the barrier, and fatalities.
Running out of fuel in a helicopter, should not mean that people have to die.
This crash was not about the fuel, it's about the aircraft not landing. Now I can see how we might speculate on "when" it didn't land, but people died because it didn't land.
Maybe he should have landed before reaching the city centre.
I still think we will never know why.
The public understand that running out of petrol at 70MPH in the motorway is not necessarily followed by an impact with the barrier, and fatalities.
Running out of fuel in a helicopter, should not mean that people have to die.
This crash was not about the fuel, it's about the aircraft not landing. Now I can see how we might speculate on "when" it didn't land, but people died because it didn't land.
Maybe he should have landed before reaching the city centre.
I still think we will never know why.
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Tom, incorrect the crash was actually a symptom of mishandling fuel and not carrying out emergency landing procedures.
The root cause was zero fuel in the supply tanks. Very simple facts.
"Running out of fuel in a Helicopter, should not mean that people have to die" Possibly not, but it doesn't really improve your chances of living whilst flying at night over a large urban area.....
The root cause was zero fuel in the supply tanks. Very simple facts.
"Running out of fuel in a Helicopter, should not mean that people have to die" Possibly not, but it doesn't really improve your chances of living whilst flying at night over a large urban area.....
Skydiver666 - you are "in fact" incorrect in your hypothesis.
Running out of fuel does not - ergo result i a "crash". A mishandled double engine failure often invariably does.
AirPolice is factually correct - the fuel issue is a contributory factor towards the ultimate conclusion but it is not - on its own - necessarily the cause of this particular crash. Pilots are trained to deal SAFELY with double engine failures (EOL's).
Most of us suspect what went wrong but would prefer to lock those thoughts away..........
Running out of fuel does not - ergo result i a "crash". A mishandled double engine failure often invariably does.
AirPolice is factually correct - the fuel issue is a contributory factor towards the ultimate conclusion but it is not - on its own - necessarily the cause of this particular crash. Pilots are trained to deal SAFELY with double engine failures (EOL's).
Most of us suspect what went wrong but would prefer to lock those thoughts away..........
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Thomas,
Where did I say that running out of fuel results in a crash? What I stated was that the fuel mismanagement was the root cause which is wholly factual and correct. Without that incident (fuel starvation) the crash would not have happened.
As for your suspicions I cannot comment as you aren't airing them, but I suspect that a few pilots cannot take on board that it was purely pilot error that took 10 lives that night.
Unlike AirPolice you have not referred to the general public (or anyone who doesn't agree with him) as the "Great Unwashed"
Where did I say that running out of fuel results in a crash? What I stated was that the fuel mismanagement was the root cause which is wholly factual and correct. Without that incident (fuel starvation) the crash would not have happened.
As for your suspicions I cannot comment as you aren't airing them, but I suspect that a few pilots cannot take on board that it was purely pilot error that took 10 lives that night.
Unlike AirPolice you have not referred to the general public (or anyone who doesn't agree with him) as the "Great Unwashed"
Skydiver666 - you are "in fact" incorrect in your hypothesis.
Running out of fuel does not - ergo result i a "crash". A mishandled double engine failure often invariably does.
AirPolice is factually correct - the fuel issue is a contributory factor towards the ultimate conclusion but it is not - on its own - necessarily the cause of this particular crash. Pilots are trained to deal SAFELY with double engine failures (EOL's).
Most of us suspect what went wrong but would prefer to lock those thoughts away..........
Running out of fuel does not - ergo result i a "crash". A mishandled double engine failure often invariably does.
AirPolice is factually correct - the fuel issue is a contributory factor towards the ultimate conclusion but it is not - on its own - necessarily the cause of this particular crash. Pilots are trained to deal SAFELY with double engine failures (EOL's).
Most of us suspect what went wrong but would prefer to lock those thoughts away..........
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There are no doubts that there was SOME fuel in the aircraft.
There are doubts as to WHY that fuel was not in the correct tanks
One week after the accident, an air ambulance pilot was presented with 2 red Fuel Warning lights in flight, while the gauges told him there was over 100kg on board. The lights were right, he landed with hardly any fuel, the gauges STILL showing over 100kg
This explains nothing, but it does introduce grounds for possible mitigation for the accident.
There are doubts as to WHY that fuel was not in the correct tanks
One week after the accident, an air ambulance pilot was presented with 2 red Fuel Warning lights in flight, while the gauges told him there was over 100kg on board. The lights were right, he landed with hardly any fuel, the gauges STILL showing over 100kg
This explains nothing, but it does introduce grounds for possible mitigation for the accident.
Skydiver asks:
What's this then:
and
Technically - the mismanagement of a fuel system on an aircraft, resulting in a double engine flame out should not result in a 'crash' - if the HP carries out the correct drills and the terrain beneath the helicopter is not hostile.
Let's leave it at that eh - because if we probe any deeper, it will unearth some uncomfortable findings for all involved.
Where did I say that running out of fuel results in a crash?
Tom, incorrect the crash was actually a symptom of mishandling fuel and not carrying out emergency landing procedures.
What I stated was that the fuel mismanagement was the root cause
Let's leave it at that eh - because if we probe any deeper, it will unearth some uncomfortable findings for all involved.
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Both statements are absolutely correct, the crash was a symptom of fuel mismanagement and the root cause of the crash was fuel mismanagement.
Remove fuel mismanagement the accident would not have happened.
Remove fuel mismanagement the accident would not have happened.
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100kg’s of fuel in the wrong tanks is as much use as runway behind you.....
There are no doubts that there was SOME fuel in the aircraft.
There are doubts as to WHY that fuel was not in the correct tanks
One week after the accident, an air ambulance pilot was presented with 2 red Fuel Warning lights in flight, while the gauges told him there was over 100kg on board. The lights were right, he landed with hardly any fuel, the gauges STILL showing over 100kg
This explains nothing, but it does introduce grounds for possible mitigation for the accident.
There are doubts as to WHY that fuel was not in the correct tanks
One week after the accident, an air ambulance pilot was presented with 2 red Fuel Warning lights in flight, while the gauges told him there was over 100kg on board. The lights were right, he landed with hardly any fuel, the gauges STILL showing over 100kg
This explains nothing, but it does introduce grounds for possible mitigation for the accident.
Skydiver:
What is it you don't understand. Think what you just said:
.
IT WASN'T the root cause of the "crash".
It definitely was the root cause of the landing but not the "crash".
An aircraft which has no fuel on board isn't guaranteed to crash - FFS????
Stick to skydiving or microlites..............
What is it you don't understand. Think what you just said:
the root cause of the crash was fuel mismanagement
IT WASN'T the root cause of the "crash".
It definitely was the root cause of the landing but not the "crash".
An aircraft which has no fuel on board isn't guaranteed to crash - FFS????
Stick to skydiving or microlites..............
There were multiple holes in the Swiss Cheese, Skydiver, which may be a better model to view this accident through than the 'broken critical link in the chain.'
You and Thomas seem to be discussing two of the holes:
1. Fuel mismanagement
2. The forced landing going horribly wrong.
Behind both of those factors are a combination of human and systemic factors.
henra brings up a point about urban terrain, at night, being hostile terrain for a helicopter pilot flying medium to low altitudes. I will suggest that the general public, or even the great unwashed, probably don't appreciate that particular element of this tragic loss. It is my opinion that one won't understand it one has been in the mind set of a helicopter pilot doing just that.
My own experiences when flying with one engine (huey or jet ranger) over an urban area was a condition of measured paranoia.
Flying over an urban area at night triggered an always running "if the engine winds down where do I put this" loop running in the back of my mind. This was a taught/acquired skill, or mind set. I am just glad I never had it happen to me (losing the donks in that situation). Back then, the night flying was unaided/no NVG.
*returns to lurk mode*
You and Thomas seem to be discussing two of the holes:
1. Fuel mismanagement
2. The forced landing going horribly wrong.
Behind both of those factors are a combination of human and systemic factors.
henra brings up a point about urban terrain, at night, being hostile terrain for a helicopter pilot flying medium to low altitudes. I will suggest that the general public, or even the great unwashed, probably don't appreciate that particular element of this tragic loss. It is my opinion that one won't understand it one has been in the mind set of a helicopter pilot doing just that.
My own experiences when flying with one engine (huey or jet ranger) over an urban area was a condition of measured paranoia.
Flying over an urban area at night triggered an always running "if the engine winds down where do I put this" loop running in the back of my mind. This was a taught/acquired skill, or mind set. I am just glad I never had it happen to me (losing the donks in that situation). Back then, the night flying was unaided/no NVG.
*returns to lurk mode*