Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub: final AAIB report
8Pieced Once in forward flight the F PUMP AFT caution appeared as it was running dry then the F PUMP AFT switch was switched off iaw normal procedure (but forgetting that he had forgotten to switch the F PUMP FWD switch back on in Dalkeith). Therefore, as each pump had been turned off at a time of dry running, subsequent emersion in fuel does not activate a F PUMP FWD or AFT caution again.
I think your are not picturing the (presumed!) fuel management of most EC135 pilots correctly. If I'd ever get to pilot that a/c, my routine to those cautions would be - besides cussing - to always toggle both pump switches (e.g. FWD off + AFT on or FWD on + AFT off) in one single attentive manipulation, as there is no airborn szenario where I'd want both of them to be off.
This twin switch flipping would develop into a semiautomatic habit, I presume.
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I know 8Pieced is having/had a (short) break, having reviewed his systems knowledge but, having viewed-without-comment for a while, I can't let some of these remarks go, most particularly:-
I would offer that the expression "OK to have" is completely inappropriate for two F PUMP captions at almost any stage in a 135, particularly at night in a UK Police machine with an MLA/MRF that's greater than that which allows both captions to remain illuminated. I would also suggest that, given the possibility of fuel flowing from supply to main in forward flight, it's imperative that the FWD pump is kept on to keep supply tanks topped up in forward flight back to a safe landing - AFT pump is unlikely to be required since fuel won't flow forward once nose up landing attitude is selected.
In addition, anyone who acknowledges numerous red FUEL warnings, whatever other captions may be illuminated, must be needing to double/triple check all systems carefully, and quickly, since there's quite obviously something out of the ordinary.
My personal opinion is that the 135 has a simple & easy to manage fuel system with enough bells & whistles to allow for safe in-flight management if you know your systems, and practice drills. The Police environment has plenty of opportunity to include the TFOs into "Pilots" emergency drills since, whilst officially not crew, the aircraft invariably operates more effectively if they are treated as quasi-crew as a minimum.
Yes, the fuel system could possibly be more automated, at some expense, but with 3,000+ hours on type, I'm often glad for the sequence of reminders that help to focus other enthusiastic minds on leaving the job & going to find some fuel!!
... the two F PUMP cautions are still sitting in the 'Ok to have' area on the CAD!
In addition, anyone who acknowledges numerous red FUEL warnings, whatever other captions may be illuminated, must be needing to double/triple check all systems carefully, and quickly, since there's quite obviously something out of the ordinary.
My personal opinion is that the 135 has a simple & easy to manage fuel system with enough bells & whistles to allow for safe in-flight management if you know your systems, and practice drills. The Police environment has plenty of opportunity to include the TFOs into "Pilots" emergency drills since, whilst officially not crew, the aircraft invariably operates more effectively if they are treated as quasi-crew as a minimum.
Yes, the fuel system could possibly be more automated, at some expense, but with 3,000+ hours on type, I'm often glad for the sequence of reminders that help to focus other enthusiastic minds on leaving the job & going to find some fuel!!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Can we please stop using this term, "alright/ok to have area".
There's no caution in any area of the CAD that's 'OK to have' .... FFS.
Which of the cautions is 'OK to have';
Eng Chip
Eng Oil P
Eng Man
Eng Fail
Starter
Eng Exceed
Any of the Fadec Cautions
FLI Fail/Degr
Fuel Valve
Fuel Press
FuelF Qty Fail/Degr
F Pump Fwd/Aft
F Valve Cl
Prime Pump
XMSN Oil P/T
XMSN Chip
TRGB Chip
Gen Discon
Gen Ovht
Batt Discon
Bustie Open
EPU Door
Inverter
Hyd Press
Pitot Htr
FCS cautions
CAU Degr
Htg Ovtemp
Ext Pwr
Fire Ext
Hor Bat
Rotor Brk
ABSOLUTELY NONE'
I don't believe that anyone that actually flies the real aircraft would be comfortable with any of those above cautions to be displayed, let alone consider them 'OK to have'.
So I say to any observer of this thread, take no notice whatsoever of this term.
There's no caution in any area of the CAD that's 'OK to have' .... FFS.
Which of the cautions is 'OK to have';
Eng Chip
Eng Oil P
Eng Man
Eng Fail
Starter
Eng Exceed
Any of the Fadec Cautions
FLI Fail/Degr
Fuel Valve
Fuel Press
FuelF Qty Fail/Degr
F Pump Fwd/Aft
F Valve Cl
Prime Pump
XMSN Oil P/T
XMSN Chip
TRGB Chip
Gen Discon
Gen Ovht
Batt Discon
Bustie Open
EPU Door
Inverter
Hyd Press
Pitot Htr
FCS cautions
CAU Degr
Htg Ovtemp
Ext Pwr
Fire Ext
Hor Bat
Rotor Brk
ABSOLUTELY NONE'
I don't believe that anyone that actually flies the real aircraft would be comfortable with any of those above cautions to be displayed, let alone consider them 'OK to have'.
So I say to any observer of this thread, take no notice whatsoever of this term.
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Caution question?
Ok, you have been doing a task away from base and you have calculated the exact time at which you need to leave that task in order to return to base and land at FRF 90 kgs night.
You departed the task with 180 kgs and have to cruise at 120kts, zero wind. Which of the cautions from your list will appear on your CAD? If any? Where might it be located?
Is it absolutely normal for this Caution (if there is one) to appear on your CAD and for roughly how long will it be there?
Is there anything you can do to get rid of the caution (if there is one) and does it worry you that it's on?
You departed the task with 180 kgs and have to cruise at 120kts, zero wind. Which of the cautions from your list will appear on your CAD? If any? Where might it be located?
Is it absolutely normal for this Caution (if there is one) to appear on your CAD and for roughly how long will it be there?
Is there anything you can do to get rid of the caution (if there is one) and does it worry you that it's on?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Any of them could appear and I wouldn't be happy.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
8Pieced;
I've been reading through your posts and I'm becoming highly suspicious of your motives here.
All of your posts seem to be bastardised snippets of what others have already quite clearly said both here and on the original thread and your use of phrases such as 'I present to you' ring a bell or two for me.
You must also be the only person, especially someone that claims to be a UK Police Pilot, that I know of that logs your fuel details in your logbook.
Famous quotes;
To add to that; every post you have made here, as an experienced police 135 pilot, has had various known users here come back and correct you; this all makes things a little whiffy for me
I've been reading through your posts and I'm becoming highly suspicious of your motives here.
All of your posts seem to be bastardised snippets of what others have already quite clearly said both here and on the original thread and your use of phrases such as 'I present to you' ring a bell or two for me.
You must also be the only person, especially someone that claims to be a UK Police Pilot, that I know of that logs your fuel details in your logbook.
Famous quotes;
For those pedantic personnel on this forum, I probably should have said that I wished I had submitted a Voluntary MOR.
I don't think people realise just how good these Police crews are. Spot on at Nav, understanding RT, reading checklists, practiced in emergency scenarios at every shift briefing, basic systems knowledge, Notams, Weather, conducting the police mission too. They are the mission commander and pilot is the driver. Any pilot who doesn't fully utilise the crew to assist in their duties does so at their own peril. If my crew isn't happy we go home.
I just looked back at my logbook and had a Police flight of 2:00, initial fuel of 450kgs landing at 91 kgs, 1 kg above my night FRF.
I agree that the autorotation did not have a successful outcome
Every police crew I have ever flown with would question a caution, initially flashing until acknowledged, and wouldn't be happy with a caution or warning remaining on unless justified that it was ok.
I have had a ROTOR RPM warning come on intermittently in flight, then stay on whilst in flight. I was of course able to understand what was happening and justify to my passenger that I could continue the flight to land as soon as practicable. So I dismissed that warning as being false.
In the obvious scenario which I have presented before in my first post, I BELIEVE:
At the time of LOW FUEL Warnings, there would be no F PUMP FWD or AFT cautions as the transfer pumps had been switched off whilst dry running iaw normal procedure.
etc
etc
Prove to me I'm wrong??
I don't think people realise just how good these Police crews are. Spot on at Nav, understanding RT, reading checklists, practiced in emergency scenarios at every shift briefing, basic systems knowledge, Notams, Weather, conducting the police mission too. They are the mission commander and pilot is the driver. Any pilot who doesn't fully utilise the crew to assist in their duties does so at their own peril. If my crew isn't happy we go home.
I just looked back at my logbook and had a Police flight of 2:00, initial fuel of 450kgs landing at 91 kgs, 1 kg above my night FRF.
I agree that the autorotation did not have a successful outcome
Every police crew I have ever flown with would question a caution, initially flashing until acknowledged, and wouldn't be happy with a caution or warning remaining on unless justified that it was ok.
I have had a ROTOR RPM warning come on intermittently in flight, then stay on whilst in flight. I was of course able to understand what was happening and justify to my passenger that I could continue the flight to land as soon as practicable. So I dismissed that warning as being false.
In the obvious scenario which I have presented before in my first post, I BELIEVE:
At the time of LOW FUEL Warnings, there would be no F PUMP FWD or AFT cautions as the transfer pumps had been switched off whilst dry running iaw normal procedure.
etc
etc
Prove to me I'm wrong??
To add to that; every post you have made here, as an experienced police 135 pilot, has had various known users here come back and correct you; this all makes things a little whiffy for me
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Is the aim of this thread to recite the FLM?
I don't think the aim of this particular thread is to recite the FLM and to tell everyone how great a pilot you are, or not as in my case 😀
Without such routines as always switching the other transfer pump on, or leaving task checks, monitoring your CAD properly etc, things may go wrong. But even with routines, things can still be missed, as you know you 'always switch on the other pump when leaving the hover' perhaps, for example.
I have merely offered that someone (like I did only once) could have left the task with the FWD pump still off, not monitored the CAD recently, then in forward flight, the Caution flashes (but you don't see the other cautions already on), acknowledges, switches off AFT pump then due to being distracted doesn't at that time check the CAD again, which has now actually got two cautions on it. So yes, you should spot 2 cautions at the next monitoring, but if only a glance may simply acknowledge the yellow, knowing that the only caution flashing so far was for a pump.
So 2 cautions have inadvertently been presented to your CAD by you.
It is an error which I did early in my 135 career, and I admit I have never done it ever since!
Going away for a few days you'll be glad to hear! 😀
I was merely offering my one silly experience, that some other non god like pilots can learn from.
Without such routines as always switching the other transfer pump on, or leaving task checks, monitoring your CAD properly etc, things may go wrong. But even with routines, things can still be missed, as you know you 'always switch on the other pump when leaving the hover' perhaps, for example.
I have merely offered that someone (like I did only once) could have left the task with the FWD pump still off, not monitored the CAD recently, then in forward flight, the Caution flashes (but you don't see the other cautions already on), acknowledges, switches off AFT pump then due to being distracted doesn't at that time check the CAD again, which has now actually got two cautions on it. So yes, you should spot 2 cautions at the next monitoring, but if only a glance may simply acknowledge the yellow, knowing that the only caution flashing so far was for a pump.
So 2 cautions have inadvertently been presented to your CAD by you.
It is an error which I did early in my 135 career, and I admit I have never done it ever since!
Going away for a few days you'll be glad to hear! 😀
I was merely offering my one silly experience, that some other non god like pilots can learn from.
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Oops forgot to answer the q
The answer to my little scenario above, to which SS didn't get full marks, was that you could be flying for up to around 18 minutes with the F PUMP AFT caution, which iaw normal procedures you have acknowledged is running dry so have switched the pump off and sits at the top middle part of your CAD.
It is perfectly normal for it to be there. Any new cautions don't just jump on to the CAD without you noticing, they are accompanied with a flashing caution attention getter.
You can't get rid of this caution, unless you reduce speed, but then you won't make base.
I'm not worried by this caution, but as I approach to land at 90 kgs, I need to be aware that my other F PUMP FWD caution may start to flash.
I would say that the Fuel System was fit for purpose (but could be better) up until the point of identifying a new failure mode such as GNWEM. It now can't be fit for purpose anymore for Police Ops.
This is purely my opinion.
It is perfectly normal for it to be there. Any new cautions don't just jump on to the CAD without you noticing, they are accompanied with a flashing caution attention getter.
You can't get rid of this caution, unless you reduce speed, but then you won't make base.
I'm not worried by this caution, but as I approach to land at 90 kgs, I need to be aware that my other F PUMP FWD caution may start to flash.
I would say that the Fuel System was fit for purpose (but could be better) up until the point of identifying a new failure mode such as GNWEM. It now can't be fit for purpose anymore for Police Ops.
This is purely my opinion.
Last edited by 8Pieced; 12th Nov 2015 at 14:14. Reason: Adding is to last sentence
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The Proper Answer
You departed the task with 180 kgs and have to cruise at 120kts, zero wind. Which of the cautions from your list will appear on your CAD? If any?
...and sits at the top middle part of your CAD.
It is perfectly normal for it to be there.
I'm not worried by this caution
I need to be aware that my other F PUMP FWD caution may start to flash.
But of course you're not wrong, because you finish off by saying "This is purely my opinion".
However it is an opinion which is clearly based on insufficient knowledge
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??
Not quite sure it was a nice one DB?:
No 'hopefully' about it in my experience, I could even just mention to my crew that there will be a F PUMP AFT caution appearing in the next few minutes, which is perfectly normal when approaching about 140-150 kgs ish total, forward flight at 120 kts.
My F PUMP indications appear at the top of the middle of 3 columns, PITOT cautions?? - they would appear to each side if on? 1st or 3 rd columns. Not Below?? Unless you are talking about the GREEN Pitot Advisory Caution? I'll let you off with a simple brain fart after a long night duty - like I had when trying to remember how I ended up switching off both my transfer pumps 5 years ago (and I will admit that the process of how I did it is even more scary now).
I'm still not worried in forward flight at roughly 150 kgs when my F PUMP AFT caution comes on as I know my Fwd Fuel pump is working, as designed, unless I forgot to switch it back on of course. But then my FUEL caution would flash and remind me.
The fuel system definitely could be a better system. As someone said before, I want a caution appearing on my CAD when something is actually broken, or I want a flashing caution telling me I should switch something back on if it should be pumping fuel, but preferably I would now like an auto system.
No 'hopefully' about it in my experience, I could even just mention to my crew that there will be a F PUMP AFT caution appearing in the next few minutes, which is perfectly normal when approaching about 140-150 kgs ish total, forward flight at 120 kts.
My F PUMP indications appear at the top of the middle of 3 columns, PITOT cautions?? - they would appear to each side if on? 1st or 3 rd columns. Not Below?? Unless you are talking about the GREEN Pitot Advisory Caution? I'll let you off with a simple brain fart after a long night duty - like I had when trying to remember how I ended up switching off both my transfer pumps 5 years ago (and I will admit that the process of how I did it is even more scary now).
I'm still not worried in forward flight at roughly 150 kgs when my F PUMP AFT caution comes on as I know my Fwd Fuel pump is working, as designed, unless I forgot to switch it back on of course. But then my FUEL caution would flash and remind me.
The fuel system definitely could be a better system. As someone said before, I want a caution appearing on my CAD when something is actually broken, or I want a flashing caution telling me I should switch something back on if it should be pumping fuel, but preferably I would now like an auto system.
Last edited by 8Pieced; 14th Nov 2015 at 22:45.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
No 'hopefully' about it in my experience, I could even just mention to my crew that there will be a F PUMP AFT caution appearing in the next few minutes, which is perfectly normal when approaching about 140-150 kgs ish total, forward flight at 120 kts.
My F PUMP indications appear at the top of the middle of 3 columns, PITOT cautions?? - they would appear to each side if on? 1st or 3 rd columns. Not Below?? Unless you are talking about the GREEN Pitot Advisory Caution? I'll let you off with a simple brain fart after a long night duty
I'm still not worried in forward flight at roughly 150 kgs when my F PUMP AFT caution comes on as I know my Fwd Fuel pump is working, as designed, unless I forgot to switch it back on of course. But then my FUEL caution would flash and remind me.
As someone said before, I want a caution appearing on my CAD when something is actually broken, or I want a flashing caution telling me I should switch something back on if it should be pumping fuel, but preferably I would now like an auto system.
You have a caution indication telling you to switch something back on if needs be, and at the same time saying fuel's getting a bit low.
Do you really totally dismiss a caution being displayed so much that you forget to do something?
That caution draws me towards the CAD rather than away from it and when in this scenario I look it, it reminds me either a. You can turn it back on now; or b. Fuel's low.
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Fly safe guys, keep up your excellent aircraft knowledge, but hopefully you are not the only ones who do the talking at your Units. Good CREW resource management is key, Luv 8 Pieced xx
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Good CRM may well be the key, but having effective CRM is the ability to turn it
There remains one aspect of the AAIB report that Ive never quite understood and it is this. Why were there no reports of anything being said on the Police radio to the control room?
Let me explain. Some will remember me as being fairly active on Police Air Support matters until a few years ago. I was responsible for setting up one unit so i am well aware of normal practice etc.
But what they might not know is that for several years before that I was a Senior Investigating Officer in the Internal affairs branch. Yes the Gestapo!
As such when investigating a serious Police vehicle accident or one where a member of the public had been killed. Almost my very first action would have been to go to the Control room involved and seize all the relevant tapes!
Now going back to my Air Support experience I know that from my first hand experience we used to tell our control room a fair bit about what was going on, especially if we were concerned about needing to return quickly re low fuel etc or any other issue that we were unhappy about.
But the accident report makes no comment about what the Police crew reported. Are we to assume that they were completely unconcerned about the low fuel state?
TF
Let me explain. Some will remember me as being fairly active on Police Air Support matters until a few years ago. I was responsible for setting up one unit so i am well aware of normal practice etc.
But what they might not know is that for several years before that I was a Senior Investigating Officer in the Internal affairs branch. Yes the Gestapo!
As such when investigating a serious Police vehicle accident or one where a member of the public had been killed. Almost my very first action would have been to go to the Control room involved and seize all the relevant tapes!
Now going back to my Air Support experience I know that from my first hand experience we used to tell our control room a fair bit about what was going on, especially if we were concerned about needing to return quickly re low fuel etc or any other issue that we were unhappy about.
But the accident report makes no comment about what the Police crew reported. Are we to assume that they were completely unconcerned about the low fuel state?
TF
