Save a Sea King!
As llamaman said - crab you 've hijacked the thread. I know you well. Have you forgotten that I was an RN SAR pilot? Have you forgotten that I have supervised every single 'yellow' SAR pilot there is/was? Do you not realise that I, uniquely, have been in a position to compare and contrast both worlds?
Only Greg L has that same claim to fame.
The bottom line is that I have seen what 15 (serviceable) cabs, 250 people, 1 Group Captain, 3 wing commanders, dozens of sqaudron leaders, countless admin staff and millions of pounds worth of infrastructure can do well - nationally.
I have also experienced a small percentage of that 'product' - do ten times as much - globally. Mountains, oceans, war zones. 24/7, 365 days a year.
SAR is part of a naval pilots' job description. For the RAF it is an Empire. RAF SAR pilots go home every night of the week, they work 4 o, 4 off. They have bank holidays and summer breaks. They sit around for 80% of the time waiting for the only thing they can do - SAR. RN pilots spend days on end away from home in all climates, doing various flying tasks some of which is SAR. And has it been successful - they still do it and will continue to do it long after the RAF boys have handed their craft over to another competent outfit - civvies. And now, suddenly, SAR no longer seems a black art anymore.
Never was, never will be.
I respect you, you are a very competent pilot but please, please call it a day now "J" time to close that book and look to your future.
Sorry for stealing the thread.
Only Greg L has that same claim to fame.
The bottom line is that I have seen what 15 (serviceable) cabs, 250 people, 1 Group Captain, 3 wing commanders, dozens of sqaudron leaders, countless admin staff and millions of pounds worth of infrastructure can do well - nationally.
I have also experienced a small percentage of that 'product' - do ten times as much - globally. Mountains, oceans, war zones. 24/7, 365 days a year.
SAR is part of a naval pilots' job description. For the RAF it is an Empire. RAF SAR pilots go home every night of the week, they work 4 o, 4 off. They have bank holidays and summer breaks. They sit around for 80% of the time waiting for the only thing they can do - SAR. RN pilots spend days on end away from home in all climates, doing various flying tasks some of which is SAR. And has it been successful - they still do it and will continue to do it long after the RAF boys have handed their craft over to another competent outfit - civvies. And now, suddenly, SAR no longer seems a black art anymore.
Never was, never will be.
I respect you, you are a very competent pilot but please, please call it a day now "J" time to close that book and look to your future.
Sorry for stealing the thread.
TC - I know I might have overreacted on this thread and I put my hand up to that, what started as banter got a bit out of hand.
However, your simplistic view of the RAF SAR Force is disingenuous and completely ignores how many people from other forces, who have done all that punchy war around the world stuff, there have been in the SARF.
You make it sound like everyone in RAF SAR has only ever known SAR which is patently untrue.
Whilst I know you are proud of your pedigree, you know I am proud of mine.
Generally, every RN pilot I have ever flown with has been a good bloke, but many have a greatly inflated opinion of their own professional capability - partly because they are always told (and tell themselves) how good they are. It's a bit like many F4 drivers were compared to the Lightning jocks, one bunch were very mixed but told you they were awesome, the others were awesome but were far more humble.
Less than a month left for the last RAF SAR flight - I still think it is a sad waste.
However, your simplistic view of the RAF SAR Force is disingenuous and completely ignores how many people from other forces, who have done all that punchy war around the world stuff, there have been in the SARF.
You make it sound like everyone in RAF SAR has only ever known SAR which is patently untrue.
Whilst I know you are proud of your pedigree, you know I am proud of mine.
Generally, every RN pilot I have ever flown with has been a good bloke, but many have a greatly inflated opinion of their own professional capability - partly because they are always told (and tell themselves) how good they are. It's a bit like many F4 drivers were compared to the Lightning jocks, one bunch were very mixed but told you they were awesome, the others were awesome but were far more humble.
Less than a month left for the last RAF SAR flight - I still think it is a sad waste.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
TC - I know I might have overreacted on this thread and I put my hand up to that, what started as banter got a bit out of hand.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
...but many have a greatly inflated opinion of their own professional capability - partly because they are always told (and tell themselves) how good they are..
Oh, the irony.
At the end of the day, SAR is just hovering with nobody shooting at you.
Thread Starter
Good..now we've got that over with can we get back to saving a Sea King for the museum.Letters of support to The Helicopter Museum at WSM please for forwarding to the appropriate MoD Minister.
Blimey, that got out of hand rather quickly!!
If the MOD are not forthcoming, how about approaching Bristow for one of their SAR S61s that were parked up at Norwich, the last time I heard?
3D
If the MOD are not forthcoming, how about approaching Bristow for one of their SAR S61s that were parked up at Norwich, the last time I heard?
3D
"All that pompous self-belief in the 'everyone has a SAR capability' sadly lost you a crew in the English Channel a few years ago launching an inappropriately trained crew into poor weather for a MOB. - That bit wasn't banter btw."
You really are a **** aren't you.
Comments like that won't help you.
What happened that night was tragic, end of.
You really are a **** aren't you.
Comments like that won't help you.
What happened that night was tragic, end of.
Last edited by rugmuncher; 8th Sep 2015 at 10:59. Reason: Added quote from Crab-**** !!!
I'm thinking charitable donations (a la XH558) to pay for the running costs and I imagine that there might be sufficient ex-Sea King crews and engineers willing to donate their time and experience.
I appreciate that a Sea King doesn't have quite the same allure as a Vulcan but surely it would be welcomed on the airshow circuit?
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Current maintenance and upkeep of Yellow Sea Kings and Grey Sea Kings
Current maintenance and upkeep of Yellow Sea Kings and Grey Sea Kings at Gannet SAR is carried out by AgustaWestland under the provisions of the SKIOS contract. SKIOS is Mil 145 accredited. Please read this link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...tial_Issue.pdf
Since the Haddon-Cave enquiry and the formation of the MAA things have changed considerably with respect to regulations concerning aircraft maintenance and many other things. I am not quite sure in my own mind how you would be able to comply and then continue to comply with current regulations for a flying an acquired Sea King without attracting considerable expense and diving through a helluva lot of fiery hoops.
It's a lovely idea but I think you would need an awful lot of money to make and continue to make it happen.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...tial_Issue.pdf
Since the Haddon-Cave enquiry and the formation of the MAA things have changed considerably with respect to regulations concerning aircraft maintenance and many other things. I am not quite sure in my own mind how you would be able to comply and then continue to comply with current regulations for a flying an acquired Sea King without attracting considerable expense and diving through a helluva lot of fiery hoops.
It's a lovely idea but I think you would need an awful lot of money to make and continue to make it happen.
Last edited by Bucaneer Bill; 8th Sep 2015 at 12:02. Reason: Spolling mistake
No doubt it would be very tricky and expensive. I imagine that it would require some sort of sponsorship or partnership with Agusta Westland. Do they have a Westland museum at Yeovil?
What happened that night was tragic, end of.
At the end of the day, SAR is just hovering with nobody shooting at you.
[email protected]
Quote:
What happened that night was tragic, end of.
yes it was and if you don't ask yourself why, the lessons will never be learned.
Oh trust me, im fully aware of why and what happened that night.
You just didn't need to reference it such an ass-hole manner !
Quote:
What happened that night was tragic, end of.
yes it was and if you don't ask yourself why, the lessons will never be learned.
Oh trust me, im fully aware of why and what happened that night.
You just didn't need to reference it such an ass-hole manner !
Thread Starter
Short answers to the above....
Bravo 73... The museum couldn't justify flying a Sea King unless it had a duplicate and in any case the engines are likely to be removed by MoD due to their spares value. Knowing the challenge faced by others to get an ex military Wessex past the CAA,I hate to think what the reaction and costs would be to get a Sea King authorised,even with AW backing.
3D Cam....the museum did approach Bristow but the U.S. Owners decided they were too valuable .I believe the last ones are now in the USA.
Bravo 73... The museum couldn't justify flying a Sea King unless it had a duplicate and in any case the engines are likely to be removed by MoD due to their spares value. Knowing the challenge faced by others to get an ex military Wessex past the CAA,I hate to think what the reaction and costs would be to get a Sea King authorised,even with AW backing.
3D Cam....the museum did approach Bristow but the U.S. Owners decided they were too valuable .I believe the last ones are now in the USA.
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There is a SAR Whirlwind flying - don't know if that is anything to do with you Heli 1 - and when it was at Chivenor there was talk of doing the same with a Wessex. Having all 3 airworthy would be awesome.
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Tourist, You stated, 'I will resist the temptation to go through fatal yellow Seaking accidents to point out that RAF make mistakes despite their much vaunted SAR training.'
I didn't know there had been any fatal RAF Sea King helicopter crashes. Please elaborate.
I didn't know there had been any fatal RAF Sea King helicopter crashes. Please elaborate.
Last edited by Clever Richard; 9th Sep 2015 at 14:12. Reason: Forgot the salutation.
Thread Starter
For the record Bucaneer Bill it is not the Westland museum but an independent charity with a lot more than just Westland products....Donations I'm sure will be welcome...a fiver for each time someone slags off either the RAF or the FAA ?!
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I have it on good authority that the Fleet Air Arm are going to retain a 771 Sqn Mk5 Sea King to mount as a gate guardian at Culdrose to mark it's service to the local community and RN SAR.
Maybe the RAF could have crab@SAAvn stuffed and mounted by the gate of RMB Chivenor to mark his own contributions to RAF SAR and these forums!!
Maybe the RAF could have crab@SAAvn stuffed and mounted by the gate of RMB Chivenor to mark his own contributions to RAF SAR and these forums!!
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Didn't say crashes, I said accidents, Dick.
I do, however remember a non-fatal crash. (that's the secret with banter, keep it fun)
XZ599 on 16 August 2001 is hardly a shining example of great training considering the job of SAR is just hovering........
I do, however remember a non-fatal crash. (that's the secret with banter, keep it fun
)XZ599 on 16 August 2001 is hardly a shining example of great training considering the job of SAR is just hovering........
Oh, I thought we had finished this derail.
so crashes aren't accidents then?
If you want to start listing who has crashed more (non-fatally to keep it funnnnn) or had more accidents in Sea Kings, I think you will definitely find the RN at the top of that list.
I can probably get an ASIMS DASOR digest of them if you really want but a cat 5 at Yeovilton, in the recent past, demonstrating advanced single engine techniques is one that sticks in my mind.
And that one wasn't dynamic rollover, unlike the one by 2 students on a mutual solo during the OCU which is what you refer to in 2001 I presume.
Didn't say crashes, I said accidents, Dick.
If you want to start listing who has crashed more (non-fatally to keep it funnnnn) or had more accidents in Sea Kings, I think you will definitely find the RN at the top of that list.
I can probably get an ASIMS DASOR digest of them if you really want but a cat 5 at Yeovilton, in the recent past, demonstrating advanced single engine techniques is one that sticks in my mind.
And that one wasn't dynamic rollover, unlike the one by 2 students on a mutual solo during the OCU which is what you refer to in 2001 I presume.
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Crab
Dick asked me to elaborate.
I did.
Please keep up.
Incidentally, of course the RN has had more accidents in Seakings.
Do I really have to explain?
Ok, here goes.
1. We had orders of magnitude more of them.
2. We did real proper tricky flying in them including going to war. (have you heard of that? It's the thing other military pilots do. Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan etc)
Some of it involves not just hovering while not being shot at......
You must also remember that the training is necessarily somewhat more challenging since they have a real role to carry out as well as SAR, which, as you know is just a secondary role...
Incidentally, nice try on the "2 students"
Remind me what job one of those "students" was going to?
Dick asked me to elaborate.
I did.
Please keep up.
Incidentally, of course the RN has had more accidents in Seakings.
Do I really have to explain?
Ok, here goes.
1. We had orders of magnitude more of them.
2. We did real proper tricky flying in them including going to war. (have you heard of that? It's the thing other military pilots do. Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan etc)
Some of it involves not just hovering while not being shot at......
You must also remember that the training is necessarily somewhat more challenging since they have a real role to carry out as well as SAR, which, as you know is just a secondary role...
Incidentally, nice try on the "2 students"
Remind me what job one of those "students" was going to?
