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Unbelievable – Bell 429 Uses Rogerson Kratos - Don't Buy!!

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Unbelievable – Bell 429 Uses Rogerson Kratos - Don't Buy!!

Old 13th Jul 2015, 03:03
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Unbelievable – Bell 429 Uses Rogerson Kratos - Don't Buy!!

I was considering upgrading my A109E to a Bell 429, one of the reasons being the complete rip-off and unethical costs of servicing just one small Rogerson Kratos display in the Agusta.

Rotorheads readers will probably remember the thread (see HERE) where I mentioned that the price quoted by Rogerson Kratos was up to USD53,400 (current AUD71,800) to repair one of these display and the quote I ended up with was USD44,500. And remember, the problem could be as simple as a faulty ¼-watt resistor. Rogerson Kratos is so lacking in ethics that it won’t provide service information to anyone else and so it knows that it will most likely get away with rip-off charges for servicing equipment.

I will point out once again that the exchange overhaul cost for a Garmin IFR-approved 600 display is USD 1,200 and for the larger Garmin 1000 it is USD 1,500.

How could Rogerson Kratos possibly justify USD53,400? Well, of course, it’s not possible that this could ever be a reasonable figure.

A week ago I went for a demo flight in the Bell 429. What a fantastic aircraft! But I was absolutely staggered to find that Bell are using Rogerson Kratos displays in the 429 – in this case, they are larger units so no doubt the rip-off service cost after the unit is out of warranty will probably be something like USD 100,000!

On discovering that Bell are using the Rogerson Kratos units in their 429s, I instantly decided not to buy the aircraft and I am now starting a campaign to advise everyone I can in the helicopter industry throughout the world not to buy a Bell 429 using Rogerson Kratos displays until Rogerson Kratos agree to give reasonable and ethical overhaul costs for equipment they have already sold.

Or course, this cannot be Bell’s fault as I have found Bell to be a totally ethical company but somehow they haven’t been told what Rogerson Kratos do to people who have aircraft that are out of warranty and, as a result, they have no power in being able to get a competitive quote.

I am going to start a major campaign including media releases – any help I can obtain from anyone else would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 03:54
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What about the H145?

Hi Dick

Airbus have a H145 touring Australia at the moment.

It certainly looks like an impressive machine.

Maybe you could tee up a demo?

If you want I can point you in the right direction....

HPT
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 05:25
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Can you get it fitted with Garmin equipment? If so could be interested.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 09:37
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Hi Dick

I'm not sure (I don't work for Airbus) but I can find out and ask the team to contact you discuss the options.

HPT
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 10:43
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Hi,

Display prices in an AH helicopter are also not so low. For example a ND in an EC 135 costs also around 20.000 EUR.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 13:45
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith
Can you get it fitted with Garmin equipment? If so could be interested.
Hello DS,

You're lucky because now the "new" EC145 (ex EC145) is fitted from the factory with Garmin 500H but it's only VFR (day and night).

The "new" H145 (ex EC145T2) is fitted with the Helionix suite from AH.

A picture of the "new" EC145 :


.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 13:54
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nice Gaffer taping...
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 16:24
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Dick, you could upgrade to the 109SP. You'll get Chelton displays, 4-axis autopilot and a slightly longer cabin (more legroom) than your 109E, but still the same speed that you like. Plus a greatly simplified electrical system! There is a demonstrator available in Australia too. At least, there was last year when it did a tour round Oz and NZ.

Less training involved for you and you already know what to look out for with the 109 Series.

I take it the Genesys mod isn't looking too good?

If only Garmin would have an IFR certified alternative that could be installed, but they refuse to certify the 500 series to IFR and the 1000 is restricted to who can install it.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 18:24
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Don't throw away the baby with the bath water!

Dick's concern for the cost of some R-K displays on some helos should make him and us ask what the 429 repair/replace costs are. The economics of every type helicopter are different, and cost for repairs and replacement are driven by many factors, such as the number of helicopters, the number of displays, the specific design, the availability of the constituent parts, etc, etc.


Can I suggest (before you all pick out the drapes on the new replacement helicopters) that you ask someone who knows specifically what the 429 repair/replacement costs for its cockpit displays?
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 19:12
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even asking for that information on what the cost for displays are might not cover the issue as I gather from the article in warrantly its one price but that goes into oprbit after warranty is over. Is there a way of getting guaranteed costs for such items and repairs post warranty?
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 21:33
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Dick

If you buy new, get a nose to tail PBH or TAP and the screens will be covered by the OEM as well as all the other components.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 21:49
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So what is the cost of a 429 then Dick? $5 million?
And the display panel is what: $100,000 at its most expensive? 2% of the cost of the cab.

So I own a merc: cost me £80,000 and I need to replace one of my display panels and it's quoted at: £1600.

Dick - get a life buddy. Wake up and smell the coffee.

If you can't play in the big boys playground - go elsewhere.

My heart is pumping purple custard.
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 23:00
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Looks to me like Dick has a life, and he gets to spend it tooling around in his private A109. Seems like most of us, Dick prefers not to hand over his $$$ to businesses who charge large amounts for a service or product that they cannot justify.

What is wrong with that?
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Old 13th Jul 2015, 23:30
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I'm with Dick as well . I got rid of my AS350 due to Turbomeca and would never run one of their engines again ( other than on PBH on my 505 when it arrives )
I now run a 109 privately for less money than the 350 . I certainly wouldn't pay even $10k for his repairs !!! Have you ever paid for or owned a helicopter Thomas ???!!!!! ........... I thought not !!
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 00:02
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I am fortunate. I can easily afford the rip off repair cost.

But to kowtow to such dishonest prices means I don't care about the industry I love.

Also why shouldn't potential buyers know what will likely happen the day warranty runs out?

I would not have purchased a 109e if Agusta had told me the repair cost of the displays. This is the second display that has failed. There are four in the aircraft.

Means a small operator could be up to pay $200,000 over a period if each display failed.

The display does not have any complex mechanical parts - so where does the staggering cost come from?

Bell should not be dealing with this company. How come the Garmin overhaul cost is less than one twentieth ?
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 06:13
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I spent several years flying a Pilatus PC7, that had the "good fortune" of having RK EFIS installed. If that aircraft stayed around, the RK displays were coming out and being replaced with G500/600. My first reaction to seeing the avionics on the 429 was to wonder who made that decision.

It is a Garmin world now. Bell did a fantastic job with the 407 GX installation. Cessna is mostly Garmin now, despite Honeywell and Collins. Wonder what it would cost for Bell to go to Garmin in the 429 -- surely not more than Garmin in the Sovereign, X, CJ3+, etc?
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 09:51
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It is a Garmin world now.
Do you not see a potential danger there?
On a somewhat different level, many firms made vacuum cleaners, but Hoover became the dominant force to the extent that it became the generic term, IE-"do the hoovering"
James dyson hawked his revolutionary bit of kit around all and sundry....they all turned him down,
Dyson was lucky (and plucky!) raised finance, started production and is now the leader.
RK, somehow, are able to attract OE specifiers. (Price? Delivery? superb no-hassle warranty? )...Once the kit is in, they have a monopoly and squeeze 'till the pips squeak....In the motoring- world, some manufacturers charge obscene amounts for certain components....so-much so, that many vehicles are economic writeoffs ,whilst having another 10-20 years' potential life.

BUT with very few exceptions, these are isolated failures, not a fundamental design or quality-control failure.
The R-K scenario would appear to be a one-way ticket to trouble.
I am amazed that the regulatory authorities would approve a monopoly-fitment , where alternatives are available. Sensible legislation would make a choice mandatory.
As demonstrated, monopolies are wide open to abuse. I am with mr. smith all the way on this.
make sure bell understand just WHY their product is on the "don't buy" list! - they may just count the lost sales and reconsider.

About 10 years ago, Mercedes Benz were the subject of much comment in the press "Letter-pages"...the bean-counters had gouged the quality to the point where reliability, paint and durability were all being publically vilified.

Their reputation took a severe hammering and they have done a great deal of rethinking,-result? Quality restored, buyer-confidence recovering and though the margins may be down, the better product is selling more units, so the overall profit is bigger.......are you listening, Mr. Bell?
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 11:23
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Best wishes Cockney Steve but the Dyson vacuum was a failure until he re-designed it over and over , I think they are still tweaking it

Cyclonic separation is an excellent way to separate dirt from air in manufacturing and industry but it requires a constant volume of fast moving air ..... and it initially worked fine for Dyson on his test bench.

But as soon as the housewife used it on her carpet or furniture the flow of air was restricted and most of the dust was sent back to the room.

It had to be modified so much to keep air flowing that it ended up with very little suction (vacuum) .... but hey , the housewife did not have to buy replacement bags , just spend all day dusting all her furniture , shelves , counters and ornaments ... stuff they didn't tell you in the sales brochure.

I credit him for high prices , pretty machines , convincing marketing , stubbornness and tenacity , but not for a good vacuum cleaner

The best vacuum cleaners are central vacs for the simple reason the dust laden exit air is all vented outside . They have some primary coarse filters in them that need occasional cleaning , but they are mainly there to protect the impeller turbine from particle erosion
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 11:34
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In Australia it would be possible to purchase three brand new motor vehicles including air conditioning , power steering and lots more for less than the cost of the repair to this relatively simple instrument .

The display is just that- it doesn't include accelerometers or rate gyros

I know RK is a smaller company than Garmin so I would be prepared to pay up to ten times the Garmin overhaul price - say $15 k. I know you are reading this ,RK. , why not offer everyone a fee of $15k to help prevent further economic damage to our helicopter industry ?

Remember. It's not a good idea to kill the golden goose
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Old 14th Jul 2015, 13:08
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TC
Dick - get a life buddy. Wake up and smell the coffee.

If you can't play in the big boys playground - go elsewhere.
Dick Smith has smelled a lot of coffee in his long and very interesting life.

When he was 24, he raised AU$610 to start a business by selling his boat & trailer for $600 and borrowing the other $10 from his wife. He gave up his job as a factory worker, rented a tiny workshop and started a business repairing and installing car radios.
He sold 'Dick Smith Electronics' 14 years later for AU$25 million which he invested in property and other ventures - some business and some philanthropic.
So I own a merc: cost me £80,000 and I need to replace one of my display panels and it's quoted at: £1600.
Like you, I pay Mercedes' exorbitant prices for spares, but I resent having to do so.

I'm not mean, nor is Dick Smith.
He started giving money to deserving causes when he was 27 - the first recipient was Nicole Kidman's father, when she was a young child.
When he sold his first company he vowed to donate AU$1 million a year to charitable causes and, as far as I know, still does.

.

Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 14th Jul 2015 at 13:27.
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