B206 Drivers, read and learn...
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Southland, NZ
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have only just moved onto the 206 and I was taught the fore finger and middle with the right hand by an adement instructor. After reading this thread I tried the right thumb on starter and left hand/thumb on the throttle and release button. I personally found it a lot more comfortable and after doing a few practice starts I feel like I would be much more comfortable catching a hot start this way. Thanks for an informative thread. Each there own I guess.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First Finger - Idle detent
Middle Finger - Starter
Left hand - Throttle
Is exactly how I was taught.
I can't see the logic in using your left thumb for both the detent button AND use the same hand to twist the throttle, as some have suggested. An incredibly awkward and disjointed way of going about it. In my opinion, you need to have full control of the throttle, which by logic, you don't if you're trying to maintain your thumb in one position while moving the rest of your hand about. Seems like a recipe to slip off of something inadvertently to me.
I always felt that with two fingers on the buttons, you're in a safe place with that component. Your main concentration should be on the turning of the throttle as you're more likely to #%*! this part up!
So long as you keep motoring that starter throughout until you get to that magic 58% whilst keeping a check on the TOT with the throttle (CECO & Bendix appropriately) there's no problem.
Whatever works best physically for each Pilot I guess.
Middle Finger - Starter
Left hand - Throttle
Is exactly how I was taught.
I can't see the logic in using your left thumb for both the detent button AND use the same hand to twist the throttle, as some have suggested. An incredibly awkward and disjointed way of going about it. In my opinion, you need to have full control of the throttle, which by logic, you don't if you're trying to maintain your thumb in one position while moving the rest of your hand about. Seems like a recipe to slip off of something inadvertently to me.
I always felt that with two fingers on the buttons, you're in a safe place with that component. Your main concentration should be on the turning of the throttle as you're more likely to #%*! this part up!
So long as you keep motoring that starter throughout until you get to that magic 58% whilst keeping a check on the TOT with the throttle (CECO & Bendix appropriately) there's no problem.
Whatever works best physically for each Pilot I guess.
In my opinion, you need to have full control of the throttle,
If the start is going hot, thumb is over the detent release, so it pushes it in, hand rolls throttle fully OFF. No control needed, just a snap left to open, a snap right to shut off.
I know that my right hand would take years to develop the muscle memory to operate the 2-finger technique, my natural sense is to lift the index finger off if my middle finger goes down. That would be really sad.
The Oz Army was pushed into this technique by a particular CO who is now associated with civil school, where it is also enforced. Except for grumpy old mongrels like me who still thumbed the buttons.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not for a Bendix
I think the OP's initial message referred to the issue of having to modulate throttle in the event of a hot start, or something to that effect, which refers to the CECO system. Of course, the Bendix is an entirely different beast all together.
The company I work for has a 206 start simulator. It's a USB-collective with the twist grip and buttons that hooks up to a computer. The instrument panel is simulated on screen with the same layout as in the actual machine.
The software can be set to simulate different ambient conditions, battery states, as well as force hot starts, hung starts etc.
I do some of the annual recurrent training as well as initial training for people getting endorsed on type. Everyone, regardless of experience (pilots ranging from 900 to over 20,000hrs), gets to do at least ~20 simulated starts, including hot starts etc.
Most of our pilots prefer the thumb-start:
RH thumb on starter
LH thumb on idle release
but some (not all) of the old timers do the middle finger - index finger thing as some have explained in here.
Now I am not going to try to change the habit of someone who has been starting 206s for 35 years, but I will say one thing for sure: When I set the thing to simulate a fast TOT runaway, I see A LOT more slipped fingers and resulting (simulated) hot starts with people that use the index finger method than with those using the thumb method.
Clamping the starter button with your right hand thumb simply puts it in a more secure hold than pushing down on it with your middle finger, especially when you then have to try to hit the idle release with a different finger of the same hand. Therefore reducing the risk of accidentally letting go or slipping off. For me personally, it is easier to clamp the right thumb down and then simply forget about that hand completely until the start is finished.
From what I can see out of a sample size of about 25 pilots, very clearly the reaction time and error rate is noticeably lower with the people that use the RH thumb on the starter. Getting the idle release down and rolling the throttle off with the left hand doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone.
So for anyone new to the 206, we will continue to train them to use their RH thumb on the starter, LH thumb on the Idle Release.
The software can be set to simulate different ambient conditions, battery states, as well as force hot starts, hung starts etc.
I do some of the annual recurrent training as well as initial training for people getting endorsed on type. Everyone, regardless of experience (pilots ranging from 900 to over 20,000hrs), gets to do at least ~20 simulated starts, including hot starts etc.
Most of our pilots prefer the thumb-start:
RH thumb on starter
LH thumb on idle release
but some (not all) of the old timers do the middle finger - index finger thing as some have explained in here.
Now I am not going to try to change the habit of someone who has been starting 206s for 35 years, but I will say one thing for sure: When I set the thing to simulate a fast TOT runaway, I see A LOT more slipped fingers and resulting (simulated) hot starts with people that use the index finger method than with those using the thumb method.
Clamping the starter button with your right hand thumb simply puts it in a more secure hold than pushing down on it with your middle finger, especially when you then have to try to hit the idle release with a different finger of the same hand. Therefore reducing the risk of accidentally letting go or slipping off. For me personally, it is easier to clamp the right thumb down and then simply forget about that hand completely until the start is finished.
From what I can see out of a sample size of about 25 pilots, very clearly the reaction time and error rate is noticeably lower with the people that use the RH thumb on the starter. Getting the idle release down and rolling the throttle off with the left hand doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone.
So for anyone new to the 206, we will continue to train them to use their RH thumb on the starter, LH thumb on the Idle Release.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 52
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, helicopter pilots often start without strapping, that's so they can hop out and give their helicopter a final external check after they have started the engine. And that leads to a whole other conversation...
My problem with the video Camp Freddie posted is that the pilot didn't even pretend to use a checklist, and apparently started the engine with the landing light on. His "flow check" missed it entirely, it seems. And that's what happens when you rely on memorized flow checks.
When I was at PHI, I routinely did five starts per day, sometimes more. Since I flew 7500 hours with that company alone (combination of 206 and BO105). I figure I've done well north of 50,000 starts of RR/Allison C20B engines. Yup, whip 'em out, boys! Let's measure ;-)
In the C20B it absolutely doesn't matter how far you open the throttle at lightoff. "Cracked" is the same as "Full." Get it back to the idle stop before 58%. The engine will be "self-sustaining" above 45% or so if it's accelerating smartly. Most pilots are OCD about holding the starter down until 58%. You don't have to; anywhere above 50% is fine and won't hurt it.
Before PHI, in the 206 I always used the right-hand index/middle finger for the idle release and starter, with my left hand dedicated solely to the throttle. Then I went to PHI where they put the starter button on the damn cyclic: Left-hand and thumb for throttle and idle release! After PHI, back again to the old way, which works for me.
There is no single "right" way to start a 206 when it comes to which fingers/hands to use. Just don't screw it up!
In all of my flying, I've never seen a TOT take off so fast that it couldn't be caught. Expect the overtemp, and don't be surprised when it happens. Just be sure to keep both buttons pressed.
Me, I check for oil pressure AND blade turning before lighting it off. That eliminates the often-overlooked requirement to ensure that the MR is turning by 25%.
Now I fly helicopters with piston radial engines, and I think back fondly on how easy turbines were to start by comparison. Aye carumba!
When I was at PHI, I routinely did five starts per day, sometimes more. Since I flew 7500 hours with that company alone (combination of 206 and BO105). I figure I've done well north of 50,000 starts of RR/Allison C20B engines. Yup, whip 'em out, boys! Let's measure ;-)
In the C20B it absolutely doesn't matter how far you open the throttle at lightoff. "Cracked" is the same as "Full." Get it back to the idle stop before 58%. The engine will be "self-sustaining" above 45% or so if it's accelerating smartly. Most pilots are OCD about holding the starter down until 58%. You don't have to; anywhere above 50% is fine and won't hurt it.
Before PHI, in the 206 I always used the right-hand index/middle finger for the idle release and starter, with my left hand dedicated solely to the throttle. Then I went to PHI where they put the starter button on the damn cyclic: Left-hand and thumb for throttle and idle release! After PHI, back again to the old way, which works for me.
There is no single "right" way to start a 206 when it comes to which fingers/hands to use. Just don't screw it up!
In all of my flying, I've never seen a TOT take off so fast that it couldn't be caught. Expect the overtemp, and don't be surprised when it happens. Just be sure to keep both buttons pressed.
Me, I check for oil pressure AND blade turning before lighting it off. That eliminates the often-overlooked requirement to ensure that the MR is turning by 25%.
Now I fly helicopters with piston radial engines, and I think back fondly on how easy turbines were to start by comparison. Aye carumba!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Center of the Universe
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Not for a Bendix. Throttle is either OFF until ~15%N1, then it is snapped to IDLE"
Well ... not always. I was taught NOT to snap to idle, just to roll open the throttle until light off and then a smidgen more to prevent flame out. This way the idle stop does not engage, allowing a quicker roll off of the throttle if necessary. This guidance from a grizzled 40+ year veteran of Bells and other helicopters. Not strictly according to the book, but has worked flawlessly for me for hundreds of starts. However, this is on a C20W, and may not apply to the B206. Also taught right thumb on START, left hand for throttle and idle stop release. Tried the other method some here advocate and can see why they get into trouble!
Well ... not always. I was taught NOT to snap to idle, just to roll open the throttle until light off and then a smidgen more to prevent flame out. This way the idle stop does not engage, allowing a quicker roll off of the throttle if necessary. This guidance from a grizzled 40+ year veteran of Bells and other helicopters. Not strictly according to the book, but has worked flawlessly for me for hundreds of starts. However, this is on a C20W, and may not apply to the B206. Also taught right thumb on START, left hand for throttle and idle stop release. Tried the other method some here advocate and can see why they get into trouble!
Last edited by EN48; 30th Jun 2015 at 13:45.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Kent
Age: 55
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys whatever you have always done, if it works for you keep doing it, changing will end in disaster. Both work it's just what you are happy with. I have many thousands of hours on the 206 and I use middle finger and left hand, never had a problem, so pick a away and stick with it, they are pussy cats to start if you abide by the rules.
Agree with Longbox... would be risky to change a well established habit.
But I think that anyone learning should use their thumbs. To me, it seems more secure and less likely to slip off at the worst possible moment. You're kind of locked into position.
But I think that anyone learning should use their thumbs. To me, it seems more secure and less likely to slip off at the worst possible moment. You're kind of locked into position.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Age: 59
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you have 50,000 starts in say 10,000 hours, that would be 5 starts for every hour flown, or one about every 12 minutes. Even if you had two engines to start on the 105, that would mean a start every 24 minutes or so. I don't think that quite "measures up".
Last edited by helonorth; 30th Jun 2015 at 13:18.
You are correct helonorth.
Let me start this over. I post on a phone these days, not a computer anymore and things get muddled. Or I'm getting senile, or stupid, or both.
Aaaaanyway, the correct numbers are...about five starts per day on average. Nine years in the 206 equals about 8200 starts (9 x 182 days x 5 starts per day). Then four years in the twin-engine BO105 equals about 7300 starts (4 x 182 days x 10 starts). So... 8200 + 7300 is around 15,500 starts on a C-20B give or take. Maybe not the number I originally thought (which is closer to the number of landings on offshore platforms), but 15,000 starts...hey, still a bunch.
Let me start this over. I post on a phone these days, not a computer anymore and things get muddled. Or I'm getting senile, or stupid, or both.
Aaaaanyway, the correct numbers are...about five starts per day on average. Nine years in the 206 equals about 8200 starts (9 x 182 days x 5 starts per day). Then four years in the twin-engine BO105 equals about 7300 starts (4 x 182 days x 10 starts). So... 8200 + 7300 is around 15,500 starts on a C-20B give or take. Maybe not the number I originally thought (which is closer to the number of landings on offshore platforms), but 15,000 starts...hey, still a bunch.
Last edited by FH1100 Pilot; 7th Jul 2015 at 20:12.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Kent
Age: 55
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love starting a 206, I have been flying the 429 today all FADEC and really cool, but there is a great feeling lighting up a 250, simple rules
Good Battery
Try and avoid wind down the pipes
Cool below 150
Give her plenty of N1
Know the difference of a Bendix and CECO
Assume it may get hot and be ready
Don't panic if it does, close the throttle continue with button
If you find she is too hot, or too slow then tell engineering, time it, give them the figures and adjust the start, but always measure the start from cold with no ground power to prove an accurate figure
I have started many 250's over the last 27 years, don't over think it
Good Battery
Try and avoid wind down the pipes
Cool below 150
Give her plenty of N1
Know the difference of a Bendix and CECO
Assume it may get hot and be ready
Don't panic if it does, close the throttle continue with button
If you find she is too hot, or too slow then tell engineering, time it, give them the figures and adjust the start, but always measure the start from cold with no ground power to prove an accurate figure
I have started many 250's over the last 27 years, don't over think it
I love starting a 206, I have been flying the 429 today all FADEC and really cool, but there is a great feeling lighting up a 250, simple rules
Good Battery
Try and avoid wind down the pipes
Cool below 150
Give her plenty of N1
Know the difference of a Bendix and CECO
Assume it may get hot and be ready
Don't panic if it does, close the throttle continue with button
If you find she is too hot, or too slow then tell engineering, time it, give them the figures and adjust the start, but always measure the start from cold with no ground power to prove an accurate figure
I have started many 250's over the last 27 years, don't over think it
Good Battery
Try and avoid wind down the pipes
Cool below 150
Give her plenty of N1
Know the difference of a Bendix and CECO
Assume it may get hot and be ready
Don't panic if it does, close the throttle continue with button
If you find she is too hot, or too slow then tell engineering, time it, give them the figures and adjust the start, but always measure the start from cold with no ground power to prove an accurate figure
I have started many 250's over the last 27 years, don't over think it
Allison defines a good first start as one taking less than 25 seconds from the introduction of fuel until the engine reaches ground idle. To obtain an optimized start, move the throttle to the ground idle position to begin fuel flow as the Nl RPM accelerates through 12-15% Nl. Do not wait for Nl RPM to peak out before initiating fuel flow, as this will unnecessarily utilize battery capacity early in the start cycle.
But never, never hang on past 15%
