B206 Drivers, read and learn...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NSW Australia
Age: 63
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B206 Drivers, read and learn...
95 % of my B206B-3 flying is in the left seat, saved a hot start a few weeks ago, when the student started by watching the TQ gauge instead of the N1 gauge on about his 10th start..., so when I saw 15% N1 come up I prompted him to open the throttle to gnd idle. He did, but still not seeing no "N1" indication, he then decided to take his finger off the start button as she lit up, I had my forefinger and middle finger ready and saved the TOT from runnaway.
A few weeks later I'm sitting flying RH seat, so now again using fore finger, but now lightly on the idle gate button, middle finger on the start...why would I have thought this a problem
! So at 15% I open the throttle, then problem, gate button does not pop up, so as I try close the throttle to idle against the gate, it goes through and she shuts down, I think that odd, couldn't have opened it enough, go again, shuts down again, in that instant, realise what has happened and shut down aborting the start, by closing throttle venting to 15%. At this stage she had only just lit up, not higher than about 400 deg.
So what do I do, practice the idle gate button and as it has been known to be sticky on this aircraft, get it working. This must have got some residual fuel ino the engine. TOT was way down at about 100 deg, so decided to start, again starter button on to 15%, open throttle, good, gate button now working, but... It went all pear shaped. As she lit up and I saw the rate the TOT needl was moving around the gauge, I knew I was in trouble, desperately pressed the idle gate button shut off the trottle but in doing so, momentarily and fatally released the starter button under my middle finger, my reversed forefinger and middle finger allowing muscle memory to take over...927-1066 deg for 2 seconds...cooked. Could not believe it and how angry and bad I felt. Still waiting to hear the final cost. Needless to say, expect no Christmas card from the boss this year...
Should have vented once more and waited 10 minutes. Should have used what I do now in the RH seat, right hand thumb on starter button, Left hand operating throttle and idle gate button.....When I exercised the miserable idle gate button she must have been slowly turning to get some residual fuel into the engine. As far as I know even with booster pumps on, just opening the throttle should not get fuel into the engine unless the engine fuel pump is turning somehow before start.
Why in all these years has that B206B-3 silly spring loaded start button not been replaced with a guarded switch, that you can flick on with your thumb and know that the starter will run no matter what? All you need is one of the spare amber caution lights to be plumbed into the starter circuit to come on at selecting start showing you you have a live starter motor? Probably because Rolls Royce say, what, and loose us a guranteed 1/2 million odd dollars a year in world wide hot starts...
Yeah thanks a lot.
A few weeks later I'm sitting flying RH seat, so now again using fore finger, but now lightly on the idle gate button, middle finger on the start...why would I have thought this a problem
! So at 15% I open the throttle, then problem, gate button does not pop up, so as I try close the throttle to idle against the gate, it goes through and she shuts down, I think that odd, couldn't have opened it enough, go again, shuts down again, in that instant, realise what has happened and shut down aborting the start, by closing throttle venting to 15%. At this stage she had only just lit up, not higher than about 400 deg. So what do I do, practice the idle gate button and as it has been known to be sticky on this aircraft, get it working. This must have got some residual fuel ino the engine. TOT was way down at about 100 deg, so decided to start, again starter button on to 15%, open throttle, good, gate button now working, but... It went all pear shaped. As she lit up and I saw the rate the TOT needl was moving around the gauge, I knew I was in trouble, desperately pressed the idle gate button shut off the trottle but in doing so, momentarily and fatally released the starter button under my middle finger, my reversed forefinger and middle finger allowing muscle memory to take over...927-1066 deg for 2 seconds...cooked. Could not believe it and how angry and bad I felt. Still waiting to hear the final cost. Needless to say, expect no Christmas card from the boss this year...
Should have vented once more and waited 10 minutes. Should have used what I do now in the RH seat, right hand thumb on starter button, Left hand operating throttle and idle gate button.....When I exercised the miserable idle gate button she must have been slowly turning to get some residual fuel into the engine. As far as I know even with booster pumps on, just opening the throttle should not get fuel into the engine unless the engine fuel pump is turning somehow before start.
Why in all these years has that B206B-3 silly spring loaded start button not been replaced with a guarded switch, that you can flick on with your thumb and know that the starter will run no matter what? All you need is one of the spare amber caution lights to be plumbed into the starter circuit to come on at selecting start showing you you have a live starter motor? Probably because Rolls Royce say, what, and loose us a guranteed 1/2 million odd dollars a year in world wide hot starts...
Yeah thanks a lot.
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: Mesopotamos
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why in all these years has that B206B-3 silly spring loaded start button not been replaced with a guarded switch,
The remedy is once committed your finger just has to sit on that button until you figure out what the issue is if any, otherwise only let go after reaching the desired N1.
Simple fix - push and hold BOTH in regardless of which side you sit.
You should never roll to the IDLE detent as they all light before then anyway.
If they don't the rigging is wrong.
Not surprised you f#$ked up.
You should never roll to the IDLE detent as they all light before then anyway.
If they don't the rigging is wrong.
Not surprised you f#$ked up.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I been hearing stories like this for years and always felt the system needed to be a bit more forgiving and less stressful - for a low timer on type anyway
What a difference from the R66 which is so easy because the starter is latched as long as the igniter is enabled and it drops automatically at 58%
Easier than driving a tram !!
What a difference from the R66 which is so easy because the starter is latched as long as the igniter is enabled and it drops automatically at 58%
Easier than driving a tram !!
Urrrr just 3,800 hrs turned over in the trusty ole (Jet)Box, over 5,000 starts.....,,,,haven't bungled, errrr I mean stumbled over that problem (yet) 
What's the problem again???
Happy Happy
What's the problem again???
Happy Happy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NSW Australia
Age: 63
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RVDT, not sure what start you are talking about..... Sure isn't like any B-3/B-1 I've flown, in my 1500 odd hours on them? You really think I don't know to keep the starter going? Try to at least read the post properly before a reply.
Technique!
Whoever taught you the one handed technique needs a kick in the bum.
I'm sure you realise this now but essentially, Right thumb hits the starter and doesn't release it until it's self sustaining or fuel is cut off. Left hand looks after throttle and detent button.
We shouldn't expect manufacturers to design aircraft for the lowest common denominator.
I'm sure you realise this now but essentially, Right thumb hits the starter and doesn't release it until it's self sustaining or fuel is cut off. Left hand looks after throttle and detent button.
We shouldn't expect manufacturers to design aircraft for the lowest common denominator.
RVDT said:
With a Bendix you should never try to modulate the start. In fact you can roll the throttle up to full open while it is starting, as long as it is back against the idle stop before the N1 reaches 58%, at which stage the FCU has done its job of starting the engine and bringing it to idle. It then has a look around to see where the throttle setting is, and either stays at idle, or accelerates accordingly.
The 2-finger technique deserves one finger, the middle one. Always used the right thumb on starter and left hand for throttle and detent release, never ever ever had a problem in 7000+ B206 hrs, Bendix and Chandler-Evans (CECO)
You should never roll to the IDLE detent as they all light before then anyway.
The 2-finger technique deserves one finger, the middle one. Always used the right thumb on starter and left hand for throttle and detent release, never ever ever had a problem in 7000+ B206 hrs, Bendix and Chandler-Evans (CECO)
Should have used what I do now in the RH seat, right hand thumb on starter button, Left hand operating throttle and idle gate button.....
Always used the right thumb on starter and left hand for throttle and detent release, never ever ever had a problem
Hold starter button down and idle release pressed together using the same hand. Turn throttle to adjust noise and temperature as required. When all good release.
Works on B206 and H500.
PAAA - take a look at my profile and you may review your statement and realise something. Only a measly 2000 on 206 myself so .........................what would I know?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As RVDT says, in my humble opinion
Forefinger right hand - idle release
Middle finger right hand - Start button
Left hand - turn throttle
Simples, Or whatever works for you !
As long as you are are clear what you are going to do should it all go horribly wrong I don't really think it matters.
Forefinger right hand - idle release
Middle finger right hand - Start button
Left hand - turn throttle
Simples, Or whatever works for you !
As long as you are are clear what you are going to do should it all go horribly wrong I don't really think it matters.
It never occurred to me that anyone would try to carry out two button pressing actions with the same hand: a recipe for trouble IMO, unless you're an accomplished piano player 
I'm with AC here in that the right thumb is for the start button and the left thumb for the idle release: much safer
And don't forget to roll onto the release once you've cracked the throttle so that it will close without restriction when it suddenly catches you with an accelerated start.......
Since there seems to be a ww exercise going on, something over 5,000hrs of playing it this way. But I stuffed up when transposing to the EC120, and I still can't work out why?!!
I'm with AC here in that the right thumb is for the start button and the left thumb for the idle release: much safer
And don't forget to roll onto the release once you've cracked the throttle so that it will close without restriction when it suddenly catches you with an accelerated start.......Since there seems to be a ww exercise going on, something over 5,000hrs of playing it this way. But I stuffed up when transposing to the EC120, and I still can't work out why?!!
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://youtu.be/EbzVPCvgmxc
Just for a lottery I googled how to start a jet ranger and took the first result from the list and he does it.
Right forefinger - start button
Right thumb - idle release
Left hand - turn throttle
Clearly there are multiple ways to skin a cat and all have some value.
Just for a lottery I googled how to start a jet ranger and took the first result from the list and he does it.
Right forefinger - start button
Right thumb - idle release
Left hand - turn throttle
Clearly there are multiple ways to skin a cat and all have some value.
Me too. I was taught that way and I think it makes a lot of sense. Right hand starter, left hand throttle. No way of mixing things up.
One would think it was designed like that, the idle stop is just perfectly placed for the LH thumb...
One would think it was designed like that, the idle stop is just perfectly placed for the LH thumb...
Forefinger right hand - idle release
Middle finger right hand - Start button
Left hand - turn throttle
Middle finger right hand - Start button
Left hand - turn throttle
However, flying an old PHI 206, the starter button was relocated onto the cyclic and therefore the left thumb would have to do the idle-release.
Turn throttle to adjust noise and temperature as required. When all good release.
Rolls Royce 250-C20 Operation & Maintenance Manual (72-00-00 pg. 62)
The 250–C20 Series engines each have two qualified control systems; they are:
(1) CECO.
The MC–40 (250–C20, –C20B, –C20J) control system manufactured by the Chandler Evans Control Systems Division of Coltec Industries.
(2) Bendix.
The DP–N1 (250–C20) or DP–N2 (250–C20, –C20B, –C20F, –C20J), (control)/AL–AA1 (governor) control system manufactured by the Bendix Engine Controls Division of Allied Signal.
C. Starting Modes.
Starting procedures are given for an automatic start mode (CECO or Bendix system) and for a modulated start mode (CECO system only).
Automatic Start Mode:
The throttle is advanced directly to the IDLE detent when desired N1 cranking speed is reached.
Modulated Start Mode:
The throttle is advanced toward the IDLE detent in increments as required to increase TOT and N1 speed at a steady rate that remains within specified limits.
The 250–C20 Series engines each have two qualified control systems; they are:
(1) CECO.
The MC–40 (250–C20, –C20B, –C20J) control system manufactured by the Chandler Evans Control Systems Division of Coltec Industries.
(2) Bendix.
The DP–N1 (250–C20) or DP–N2 (250–C20, –C20B, –C20F, –C20J), (control)/AL–AA1 (governor) control system manufactured by the Bendix Engine Controls Division of Allied Signal.
C. Starting Modes.
Starting procedures are given for an automatic start mode (CECO or Bendix system) and for a modulated start mode (CECO system only).
Automatic Start Mode:
The throttle is advanced directly to the IDLE detent when desired N1 cranking speed is reached.
Modulated Start Mode:
The throttle is advanced toward the IDLE detent in increments as required to increase TOT and N1 speed at a steady rate that remains within specified limits.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NSW Australia
Age: 63
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well some interesting replies, and interestingly a lot of variables with technique. From the LH Seat, I'm happy with forefinger (starter) and middle on idle button, ready to go whilst student starting, as I described in my opening post, have saved a hot start with a student that way. But in the RH Seat, I'm definately now in the right hand thumb (starter) and left hand opening throttle and thumb on idle button camp, I think that is pretty bullet proof. It is a bit of a pain as using both hands to start, you have to clamp the cyclic with your legs, but small price to pay. Due most friction systems I've encountered being a bit worn when tightening to stabilise cyclic position.
But goes back to my point of why that silly spring loaded tiny start button, has not been replaced by a guarded switch, I don't know. With a guarded starter on switch, you could quite safely start with one hand, no problem. flick guarded switch to start, starter running, slide hand back onto throttle to open and hold thumb over idle button to shut down if TOT runs away, starter will be running no matter what. If start normal, slide hand forward and flick off starter switch at 60% N1...simple I think. I tell you if I owned a B206, I'd certainly be very keen on doing that mod.
But goes back to my point of why that silly spring loaded tiny start button, has not been replaced by a guarded switch, I don't know. With a guarded starter on switch, you could quite safely start with one hand, no problem. flick guarded switch to start, starter running, slide hand back onto throttle to open and hold thumb over idle button to shut down if TOT runs away, starter will be running no matter what. If start normal, slide hand forward and flick off starter switch at 60% N1...simple I think. I tell you if I owned a B206, I'd certainly be very keen on doing that mod.
That switch is already on the B212 and 412 series, should be an easy thing to do. But remember to include the "STARTER ON" caution light..... been caught in a 412 during a rush start, wondered for 5 seconds why the Gen wouldn't come on line...
Lets examine a few things here -
FWIW I have maintained A250 models since about 1978.
In simple terms ask yourself why the engine gets cooked in the first place.
The biggest problem is the detent. Shutting off the fuel is the biggy.
The procedure I quoted is followed by Bell as alluded to and removes all the myth and BS and also the reasons it gets cooked.
Engage starter and remove detent - keep it that way until start is successful or abort is successful.
Move throttle to light off point, watch what happens to TEMP. This will be the coolest start you will get regardless of model.
Possibly universal across all 250 powered helicopters.
All you have to do is change the fuel flow as appropriate. In Bendix 18's, 20's and 20B's it is ON or OFF. On 30's you can modulate the flow and god forbid if there are any CECO equipped engines or 28's (boat anchors) still left.
L1 would never have had a CECO as it is/was fitted with a 28 engine.
I assume you were in the AUS MIL if you flew a B-1? Kiowa? CECO?
Most pilots go through life experiencing mostly benign starts and then one day.................................
Engineers are the ones that see the unsuccessful start results and have come up with procedures to avoid it.
They also have to troubleshoot the problems.
If you roll past the detent and let it engage you better be quicker than most to catch a "wet" start.
In PAAA's case this what is likely to have happened. Also be interesting to see the state of the burner drain check valve.
How many of you know how to check your IDLE speed setting and can do a slam decel check to see that your engine will not do a LEAN flame out?
I have seen a H500 spit 8 foot flames out the tailpipe on a start due to an internal OIL leak - go figure.
FWIW I have maintained A250 models since about 1978.
In simple terms ask yourself why the engine gets cooked in the first place.
The biggest problem is the detent. Shutting off the fuel is the biggy.
The procedure I quoted is followed by Bell as alluded to and removes all the myth and BS and also the reasons it gets cooked.
Engage starter and remove detent - keep it that way until start is successful or abort is successful.
Move throttle to light off point, watch what happens to TEMP. This will be the coolest start you will get regardless of model.
Possibly universal across all 250 powered helicopters.
All you have to do is change the fuel flow as appropriate. In Bendix 18's, 20's and 20B's it is ON or OFF. On 30's you can modulate the flow and god forbid if there are any CECO equipped engines or 28's (boat anchors) still left.
Flew a L1 which had a CECO fuel control and set up for modulation
Sure isn't like any B-3/B-1 I've flown
Most pilots go through life experiencing mostly benign starts and then one day.................................
Engineers are the ones that see the unsuccessful start results and have come up with procedures to avoid it.
They also have to troubleshoot the problems.
If you roll past the detent and let it engage you better be quicker than most to catch a "wet" start.
In PAAA's case this what is likely to have happened. Also be interesting to see the state of the burner drain check valve.
How many of you know how to check your IDLE speed setting and can do a slam decel check to see that your engine will not do a LEAN flame out?
I have seen a H500 spit 8 foot flames out the tailpipe on a start due to an internal OIL leak - go figure.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 67
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re: Camp Freddy / R66 Start
What a difference from the R66 which is so easy because the starter is latched as long as the igniter is enabled and it drops automatically at 58%
Easier than driving a tram !!
Easier than driving a tram !!