Can you fly the CH77 in the UK?
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Can you fly the CH77 in the UK?
Just been looking at the above helicopter by Helisport. Is there anyway you could fly this in the UK obviously not on the G register but via Poland, Switzerland or French registration? Thanks.
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Covered in this thread to some extent http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/523...elicopter.html
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Kit Helicopters in UK
I'm re-asking this as the administrators moved my original question into a thread which wasn't relevant to the question I was asking. I understand tat the only "G" registered heli kit is the Rotorway. Is there any way of buying another kit that is ok for Italy or France and fly that here in the UK under that country's registration? If the answer is no, does that mean that these guys couldn't come over here to the UK in their respective helicopters? Thanks
I'm re-asking this as the administrators moved my original question into a thread which wasn't relevant to the question I was asking. I understand tat the only "G" registered heli kit is the Rotorway. Is there any way of buying another kit that is ok for Italy or France and fly that here in the UK under that country's registration? If the answer is no, does that mean that these guys couldn't come over here to the UK in their respective helicopters? Thanks
This is despite the ECAC agreement which is supposed to allow free circulation of signatory state aircraft. More CAA gold-plating.
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Jellycopter, is that 28 days flying or 28 days in the country? What a load of crap eh. If it can be here for 28 days why not longer. Don't you just love the logic of the CAA grrrrr.
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CH77
Just had a look at this hell from Italy and looks a lovely little machine. Carbon Fibre blades, Rotax engine, Glass panel if you want one, 88Knots Cruise, 3 hours endurance and around 6 us gallons an hour. Now the question and I'm sure the answer is "plenty" but what would stop you flying this in the UK under a French or Italian registration? Looks an ideal machine for the private market. Here's the YouTube link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkXPsNL_BwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkXPsNL_BwE
However, as we all know, the air in the UK is 'special' and does not behave like the air in the other ECAC states, so our wonderful CAA, in its infinite wisdom, decided to adopt additional restrictions.
During the gold-plating challenge a couple of years ago, I emailed the CAA asking why it had gold-plated this agreement and asked for it to be reviewed. Here's the link to the CAA's published response - see Page 9 for my query.
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP1337GAunitgoldplateresponse(Dec15).pdf
Here's a link to the ECAC signatories and their individual arrangements. You'll see that the UK CAA is the only one that limits the length of stay to 28 consecutive days and any longer requires prior CAA approval.
https://www.ecac-ceac.org/documents/10189/0/HomeBuiltAircraft2015-09.pdf/f6a1d257-bb36-4a89-9043-bc49387663c7
So until someone is prepared to shell out tens of thousands to get a UK permit to fly and modify the Heli to meet JAR VLH requirements, don't hold your breath!
Interestingly, you could take your UK registered Rotorway on a Permit to Fly into many of the other ECAC states without restriction. Hardly seems equitable..... Which leads me to my conclusion that the air in the UK must be special!
JJ
Last edited by jellycopter; 24th Feb 2016 at 17:59. Reason: Got my facts wrong!
As an aside, I'm aware of at least one Danish (I think!) registered Rotorway that lived in the UK for over 3 years without problem until the owner left the country and moved it to NZ with him. I guess it's not a big problem until you get caught and prosecuted!
Kit Helicopters in the UK
I had some detailed correspondence with the CAA last summer regarding approving a totally new kit helicopter in the UK along with a totally new approach to construction (2-week build) and was geniunely impressed with their attitude, enthusiasm and quoted costs. It does amount to a significant amount of money, but not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination, nor was their approach.
If you could find 50 like minded prospective buyers together you could easily design, build and approve a completely new high machine for everyone's benefit.
CRAN
If you could find 50 like minded prospective buyers together you could easily design, build and approve a completely new high machine for everyone's benefit.
CRAN
Simply because it is possible to design a SUBSTANTIALLY better machine than what is available today. None of the existing kit helicopters perform well enough to be viable personal helicopters IMHO.
Cran
That's encouraging! My last detailed correspondence with the CAA on this subject (CH7 Kompress) was about about 6 years ago and it seemed like a huge mountain to climb. JAR VLH was the reference document that detailed the required standards and specifications a machine must meet.
What aggrieves me, and others, is that the CAA continue to expect significantly more stringent standards for 'home builds' or experimentals than any of our continental or American cousins. The operational evidence gained in other countries is not acceptable as proof of safety. It's the nanny state we live in I guess. If you don't allow aviation to happen, or make it impossibly expensive, it will be 100% safe!
The new UK 'Experimental' category is a small step in the right direction. However, once you've completed your flight testing of your prototype, you still need to jump through the hoops (paperwork and £££) of a formal application and prove it meets more stringent standards than our French cousins only 22 miles away!
How can it possibly be right that the French and Italian authorities allow many kit helicopters to fly, yet our CAA don't. Why will our CAA not accept the French/Italian approvals and rubber stamp them in the UK? Why? It makes no sense. Or, is the UK so special and our regulators know better than the rest of Europe and the USA?
It's nonsense. If I had the stomach, and time.....and finances, I might consider pursueing this formally. But I don't have any of the above; and a brief rant on an internet forum is all I can manage.
JJ
That's encouraging! My last detailed correspondence with the CAA on this subject (CH7 Kompress) was about about 6 years ago and it seemed like a huge mountain to climb. JAR VLH was the reference document that detailed the required standards and specifications a machine must meet.
What aggrieves me, and others, is that the CAA continue to expect significantly more stringent standards for 'home builds' or experimentals than any of our continental or American cousins. The operational evidence gained in other countries is not acceptable as proof of safety. It's the nanny state we live in I guess. If you don't allow aviation to happen, or make it impossibly expensive, it will be 100% safe!
The new UK 'Experimental' category is a small step in the right direction. However, once you've completed your flight testing of your prototype, you still need to jump through the hoops (paperwork and £££) of a formal application and prove it meets more stringent standards than our French cousins only 22 miles away!
How can it possibly be right that the French and Italian authorities allow many kit helicopters to fly, yet our CAA don't. Why will our CAA not accept the French/Italian approvals and rubber stamp them in the UK? Why? It makes no sense. Or, is the UK so special and our regulators know better than the rest of Europe and the USA?
It's nonsense. If I had the stomach, and time.....and finances, I might consider pursueing this formally. But I don't have any of the above; and a brief rant on an internet forum is all I can manage.
JJ
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Mad!
I find it incredible that they allow it for 28 days. Like without all our paperwork and testing and mods we won't approve it as it might not be safe BUT you can fly it for 28 days no problem and we don't care what the French, Americans, Italians etc etc do that's just us. Would be great if someone had the time and money to sort this out. I understand you can't have every Tom Dick and Harry building things in their sheds and just flying them but cone on there are some great kits out there with a proven record. As a private pilot with the crappy UK weather even 56 days would probably be do-able 
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Very true. It's either safe or it is unsafe to fly. If it is safe there is no reason to limit the period of use, and if it is unsafe it should not be allowed to fly here at all. So where is the logic behind the 28 day permission? Perhaps foreign registered aircraft fall apart on the 29th day?
The CAA reasoning behind the 28 day limit is pretty clear; they don't want foreign-registered aircraft to be 'based' in the UK - it's seen as an abuse of the ECAC agreement. (Imposing a 28 day limit is also an abuse of the agreement!).
As the CAA is a private company with a requirement to turn a profit, how can they justify simplifying the requirements for home built aircraft as it would hurt their bank balance? They know that no-one would bother with the UK register and everyone would jump to less onerous jurisdictions. You only have to look at how many certified FAA 'N' reg machines knocking around to know that to be the case. The CAA can't control the circulation of certified machines, but they sure as hell can control the amateur built stuff.
The official line will doubtless be about 'safety'; but the real reason is that if it's too simple (read cheap), there won't be any money to be made out of it.
JJ
As the CAA is a private company with a requirement to turn a profit, how can they justify simplifying the requirements for home built aircraft as it would hurt their bank balance? They know that no-one would bother with the UK register and everyone would jump to less onerous jurisdictions. You only have to look at how many certified FAA 'N' reg machines knocking around to know that to be the case. The CAA can't control the circulation of certified machines, but they sure as hell can control the amateur built stuff.
The official line will doubtless be about 'safety'; but the real reason is that if it's too simple (read cheap), there won't be any money to be made out of it.
JJ
