Rogerson Kratos Huge Repair Cost – Again!

[B407]

AW in Philly is working on an STC to replace the Kratos displays with 2 large format Astronautics units.Anticipated cost is AROUND US$120k for the complete kit.

This may be somewhat of a solution, but still perhaps $140 - 150K installed if the pricing estimate of $120K is reliable. However, not certain if the reliability and repair costs for these displays will be better. Should be better being newly manufactured, and may have a longer warranty period that the repaired RK units. And, schedules for avionics development are notoriously optimistic; not sure Smith can wait a year or more to get his 109 flying again.

This approach is much different in a technical sense than the Garmin panel pictured in another post in that these displays can be designed from the outset to be plug compatible (and possibly mechanically compatible) with the displays they replace, where as with the Garmin setup, there is much work to be done to interface the Garmin equipment with existing systems/equipment, some of which would almost certainly require Garmin's participation for software modification and certification. Posts here indicate that Astronautics already makes displays for another version of the AW109, so should be well down the learning curve.

[noooby]

The displays are already in production. There is no design work required, apart from interfacing with the existing autopilot. Mostly it is about testing the displays with the already installed equipment (autopilot, Air Data etc).
Considering each RK screen costs around US$50k for repair, the cost of this STC is quite affordable.
The Garmin panel in the other post is not IFR capable as the G500H is VFR only, so there would be extra cost. I was developing my own STC using another manufacturer, but I was having trouble keeping hardware costs alone below US$200k!
If AW/Leonardo can do the complete package anywhere near the price they are saying, I'll be extremely happy.
I know of quite a few 109E's that are flying around with one or two screens out already, so this becomes even more cost effective.
I do have repair cost for these screens somewhere. I would need to dig it out, but I seem to recall it being less than 10k. Don't quote me on that until I dig out the info though!

[Dick Smith]

Yes. The repair costs for this latest proposed Philly mod is less than $10 k per unit.

I reckon it's fantastic. I plan to do the mod if I am still an aircraft owner by the time it is available .

I have advised everyone in Aus to get out of GA. We have ex military people running the ATC service provider and the Regulator. One way ratchet in increasing regs and costs resulting in a decimated industry and no light on the horizon .

[500e]

There is your answer to cost Dick
Kratos awarded $9.4M contract for helicopter maintenance training systems | Vertical Magazine

[Dick Smith]

Don't quite understand why it would be an explanation for the rip off , totally unethical repair costs .

I can't wait for the new units to become available. I will be a customer. Hope they will integrate with the latest Garmin WAAS GPS units and provide vertical guidance to the minimum on GPS approaches.

[noooby]

So for those of you who have been following this drama, you'll be pleased to know that the solution is certified.
STC SR04390CH allows the installation of two Astronautics Roadrunner EFIS screens in all models of 109/119.
Retail cost for the two screens plus adapter kits (basically a wiring harness to convert the aircraft harness to the EFIS) is US$95k all in.
Installation is on top of that but it is plug and play. No drilling or anything required. Maintains full IFR certification and is NVIS complatible out of the box. Can be configured with HTAWS and TCAS too.
Each of the four Kratos screens retail at US$96k. So for the replacement cost of one screen, you get the complete kit.

[Autonomous Collectiv]

Originally Posted by noooby

So for those of you who have been following this drama, you'll be pleased to know that the solution is certified.
STC SR04390CH allows the installation of two Astronautics Roadrunner EFIS screens in all models of 109/119.
Retail cost for the two screens plus adapter kits (basically a wiring harness to convert the aircraft harness to the EFIS) is US$95k all in.
Installation is on top of that but it is plug and play. No drilling or anything required. Maintains full IFR certification and is NVIS complatible out of the box. Can be configured with HTAWS and TCAS too.
Each of the four Kratos screens retail at US$96k. So for the replacement cost of one screen, you get the complete kit.

That is great news indeed, I'd expect Dick Smith to be the first Australian customer. We have RK screens in two of our aircraft, they look good but are woefully unreliable.

[roscoe1]

Sorry I'm late to the party

The worst customer support experience I had in almost 40 years in helicoprter maintenance was with Rogerson Kratos. It was everything stated above and more. At one point when I finally got someone who would talk to me, almost impossible most of the time, they actually told me they couldn't find the unit or their work order. I was calling about a close to $30K repair estimate they had sent me. I had to get the shipping data and read to them who had received it and when it was plunked down on their doorstep. I cringe as a taxpayer every time I see their name mentioned in a government contract. Have a great day RK.

[noooby]

Originally Posted by roscoe1

The worst customer support experience I had in almost 40 years in helicoprter maintenance was with Rogerson Kratos. It was everything stated above and more. At one point when I finally got someone who would talk to me, almost impossible most of the time, they actually told me they couldn't find the unit or their work order. I was calling about a close to $30K repair estimate they had sent me. I had to get the shipping data and read to them who had received it and when it was plunked down on their doorstep. I cringe as a taxpayer every time I see their name mentioned in a government contract. Have a great day RK.

I'd like to be able to say that yours is a one off experience but it isn't. I've seen and heard countless horror stories. From 35k repairs for a simple diode that failed, to no warranty for repairs to repairs failing within a few weeks. It is just unbelievable.

Astronautics have worked hard to get this right. I hope people adopt it and it works out for them.

This system can replace the steam gauges, EFIS50, Rogerson Kratos EFIS and the 4 screen Astronautics EFIS.

[roscoe1]

So strange

The whole thing is so strange. For years I have wondered how a company puts so little into customer service when it is the one aspect of a business that can promote initial AND return business, yet costs so little to do well. In fact it seems that they put some effort into being bad at some things.

[garsr1]

We have ordered the Roadrunners for our A109S but it's a busy time of the year so probably won't get installed for a couple months. I will give some feedback on their operation, I'm sure we're all curious. We removed the King MFD, the Garmin 430 530 and replaced them with all Avadyne. It is working great and full color with terrain, traffic and radar. Also the transponder is 2020 compliant.

[Sumpor Stylee]

Originally Posted by noooby

I'd like to be able to say that yours is a one off experience but it isn't. I've seen and heard countless horror stories. From 35k repairs for a simple diode that failed, to no warranty for repairs to repairs failing within a few weeks. It is just unbelievable.

Astronautics have worked hard to get this right. I hope people adopt it and it works out for them.

This system can replace the steam gauges, EFIS50, Rogerson Kratos EFIS and the 4 screen Astronautics EFIS.

But can you display wx Radar on the astronautics screen? Also is it compatible with Garmin 650? And if there’s a problem with comms to avionics who covers what as Leonardo will probably blame all subsequent issues on the screens as a result.

[noooby]

Originally Posted by Sumpor Stylee

But can you display wx Radar on the astronautics screen? Also is it compatible with Garmin 650? And if there’s a problem with comms to avionics who covers what as Leonardo will probably blame all subsequent issues on the screens as a result.

Yes it can display weather. It does have that ability. And TCAS and HTAWS.

You aren't familiar with STC's by the sound of it. The STC holder is responsible for any issues surrounding the installation. NOT Leonardo. That is normal. Astronautics is an OEM supplier to Leonardo anyway. So Leonardo know them well.

I do find your statement about Leonardo not helping with add on avionics to be confusing though, as you ask if it is compatible with the GTN650, which itself is not supported by Leonardo on the 109E/S. So if you have a GTN650 installed you must already have an STC or mod done to your aircraft that Leonardo won't help you with.

To be clear, there are NO WIRING MODS to do with this installation. Whatever the old Kratos or Astronautics screens were wired into, is what the new Astronautics screens will be wired into. It uses the exact same wiring harness for the basic installation. All you do is add in a harness adapter to convert the connectors.

If you want to add functionalities that the old Kratos or Astronautics screens did not support, then you would work with the STC holder to do that.

As with any other STC.

[RickNRoll]

Originally Posted by Dick Smith

I wonder if the staff at RK reflect the lack of ethics of the company?

It would be poetic justice if they did.

Must be a terrible place to work.

Don't mean to be a party pooper Dick, but you were known to charge pretty extreme prices for electronic components yourself some years back. What the market will bear.

[krypton_john]

Originally Posted by RickNRoll

Don't mean to be a party pooper Dick, but you were known to charge pretty extreme prices for electronic components yourself some years back. What the market will bear.

That is not my recollection, and if you didn't like Dick's prices you could buy substitute items elsewhere. Not so if you are stuck with RK EFIS.

[JustinHeywood]

Originally Posted by RickNRoll

Don't mean to be a party pooper Dick, but you were known to charge pretty extreme prices for electronic components yourself some years back. What the market will bear.

Not in my experience. Dick Smith stores were somewhere between ‘cheap and cheerful’ and mid-range.

[Ascend Charlie]

How many years back??

Woolworths bought Dick out a looooong time ago.

[garsr1]

https://astronautics.com/wp-content/...heet-REV-8.pdf

Finally have the new displays installed in to our A109S. Displays are very clear, but it wasn't all just plug and play it took about 10 days for the avionics tech to instal and program. Astronautics is saying that they are working on a software update for synthetic vision hopefully around the first of the year.

[Dick Smith]

Garsr1, thanks for the update. Would you be able to give a bit more information? Why did it take so long just to put in a number of adapter plugs? 40 hours seems an incredible time. Is there anything you learnt that you could pass on to me if I go ahead?

What did you do with the Rogerson Kratos units that you pulled out? Are they for sale?

Garsr1, I would love to speak to you about this. I have sent you a private message about getting your contact details – or are you happy to give them on the site?

[garsr1]

https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ifd550
https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ex600-cmax

The standard Garmin 530 and 430 along with the King MFD has also been replaced I have also attached the models that are currently in the S model. There was a little modification of the panel but not a big issue to do.

I have replied to PM's so if anyone else has question feel free to PM me and I'll answer what questions I can or I will direct you to the shop that did the install.