CAA bans governor off training
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CAA bans governor off training
So I am realiably informed that the UK CAA has just issued a ban on governor off training in Robinson helicopters but I can't find any official statement or directive can anyone help ?
CBS
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Not quite, I believe that Fred Cross has stated in an email to operators that governor off training should only be done as part of emergency procedures training as per POH, rather than as a demonstration in for example Ex.4 effects of controls as some instructors were apparently doing.
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Thank you for the clarification anyone doing anything outside what the poh says is asking for trouble so glad to see they trying to stop it. Personally I teach it pre solo just in case it fails and when covering malfunctions
CBS
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CBS I'm not implying that this statement infers to you but from what I can see the people who want these things gone are the ones who either can't or have difficulty carrying out Governor off and EOL's to the ground
Surely quite enough Robinsons crash as it is without doing eol to the ground ....
I have always believed that insurers should either ban them or charge an extra premium for those that insist on doing them . Granted , they are fun but when you pay your own insurance ( which the majority of the people on this site do not !) it is irritating to say the least when insurers hike premiums due to in part so many botched ones !! A 5 -10ft power recovery should be sufficient as writing it off in the last few feet is not really a concern to anyone .... Including the insurance companies . This is due to the incredibly rare occurrence nowadays . I think the helicopter training world is still stuck in the 1960,s and 70,s when total engine failures were more common . Nowadays we should be concentrating much more on good airmanship rather than playing all day
at eol,s !!!!
Ps I started to get really good premiums when I stated that none of my helicopters would ever do them and I have certainly never done one in the current machine !!
I have always believed that insurers should either ban them or charge an extra premium for those that insist on doing them . Granted , they are fun but when you pay your own insurance ( which the majority of the people on this site do not !) it is irritating to say the least when insurers hike premiums due to in part so many botched ones !! A 5 -10ft power recovery should be sufficient as writing it off in the last few feet is not really a concern to anyone .... Including the insurance companies . This is due to the incredibly rare occurrence nowadays . I think the helicopter training world is still stuck in the 1960,s and 70,s when total engine failures were more common . Nowadays we should be concentrating much more on good airmanship rather than playing all day
at eol,s !!!!
Ps I started to get really good premiums when I stated that none of my helicopters would ever do them and I have certainly never done one in the current machine !!
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Personally I teach it pre solo just in case it fails and when covering malfunctions
And as usual, there is nothing wrong with a Robinson as long as they are flown within there limitations, but people will insist on going beyond them.
and a lot of us self-improvers wouldnt be flying today were it not for Robinsons. Flown sensibly within limitations they are relatively safe. What about all of us who learned to fly them pre-governor? What about my students who had governor failures early on in their solo ppl training and had no problem flying the machine safely back to base? No big deal. Seems like the nanny state is well and truly catching us up.
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I remember two new pilots who lost it when I popped the Gov. cb.
The poor little buttercups will have an issue in migrating to '47s won't they.
Plenty of times turbines need a bit of throttle handling too ain't there?
Nanny state alright.
The poor little buttercups will have an issue in migrating to '47s won't they.
Plenty of times turbines need a bit of throttle handling too ain't there?
Nanny state alright.
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Governor
So what about the 300s in the world out there? No more teaching on them as well as most of them don't have a governor?
The authorities are so contradictory: On the one hand they want to produce more safety (by increasing the amount of paper to be used that is) and on the other side they no longer want us to teach the real life:
And for you Vertical Freedom:
By now even the latest member on PPRUNE understands that you are happy with what you fly and that you don't like Robinson Helicopters.
But please, for the future share your extraordinary experience with us and quit posting these childish answers. Somebody with your experience should be able to contribute more to PPRUNE than just those polemical and hackneyed sayings.
Sorry, had to get rid of that.
The authorities are so contradictory: On the one hand they want to produce more safety (by increasing the amount of paper to be used that is) and on the other side they no longer want us to teach the real life:
- off airport landings
- EOL
- governor off procedures
And for you Vertical Freedom:
should be banning Robinsons not the governor training
But please, for the future share your extraordinary experience with us and quit posting these childish answers. Somebody with your experience should be able to contribute more to PPRUNE than just those polemical and hackneyed sayings.
Sorry, had to get rid of that.
Dear Spunk
Maybe thou should apply a major reality check & see the horoundius death related failures & incinerations; rather than spunk????
I speak (sadly) from experience rather than 'full of cum' hence my scathing but REAL remarks about the CRAP made by Robinson
Happy landings
Maybe thou should apply a major reality check & see the horoundius death related failures & incinerations; rather than spunk????
I speak (sadly) from experience rather than 'full of cum' hence my scathing but REAL remarks about the CRAP made by Robinson
Happy landings
but the only machines I know to have crashed and injured or killed personal friends are Agusta 109's!!! Don't personally know anyone killed in an R22. Of course i've heard about them, and yes, there is always going to be accidents regardless of the helicopter type.
I once had to use the throttle on a B206 to be able to land. Luckily I had learned to fly using the throttle on a robbo eh? lol
I once had to use the throttle on a B206 to be able to land. Luckily I had learned to fly using the throttle on a robbo eh? lol
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Just to restate here, nobody is banning governor off training, they are just asking for it to be done at the appropriate time in the course.
demo-ing it on exercise 4 is not a brilliant time to do it IMO, it seems a sensible clarification to me.
demo-ing it on exercise 4 is not a brilliant time to do it IMO, it seems a sensible clarification to me.
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Dear the CAA,
Agree that the 22 POH says no Gov Off training unless practicing for emergencies.
That said, you the CAA, and EASA want better, higher quality training... So how do you teach exercise 4 as effectively as an instructor might, if you can't turn the Gov Off? We've been doing it this way for 15+ years on EX4 so seems a bit "Jobsworth".
EASA AMC does still show Gov Off Training within the course at 14 if I recall correctly. However, it doesn't show as being a requirement at all in the AMC's pertaining to the content of Instructor Courses, as far as I can see. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore the industry is expecting Instructor Courses NOT to teach those candidates on FI courses to do Gov Off, for those FI's to then have to teach it in the PPL Course? Am I reading these AMC's correctly??
I don't know anymore I really don't. Just remember this - to those in EASA and Fred and the like at the CAA - if this industry can't turn a corner and flourish, then there won't be much industry left, therefore there won't be any point in our regulators having a GA section- so you'll all lose your jobs! You'll be surplus to requirements.
I could go on.....
Agree that the 22 POH says no Gov Off training unless practicing for emergencies.
That said, you the CAA, and EASA want better, higher quality training... So how do you teach exercise 4 as effectively as an instructor might, if you can't turn the Gov Off? We've been doing it this way for 15+ years on EX4 so seems a bit "Jobsworth".
EASA AMC does still show Gov Off Training within the course at 14 if I recall correctly. However, it doesn't show as being a requirement at all in the AMC's pertaining to the content of Instructor Courses, as far as I can see. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore the industry is expecting Instructor Courses NOT to teach those candidates on FI courses to do Gov Off, for those FI's to then have to teach it in the PPL Course? Am I reading these AMC's correctly??
I don't know anymore I really don't. Just remember this - to those in EASA and Fred and the like at the CAA - if this industry can't turn a corner and flourish, then there won't be much industry left, therefore there won't be any point in our regulators having a GA section- so you'll all lose your jobs! You'll be surplus to requirements.
I could go on.....
Demonstrating the throttle during Exercise 4 is EASY with the governor on - after all - it's been designed so that you can override it by hand.
So leave the governor on and simply explain to your student how it all works, how it can be over ridden and make minor adjustments to the throttle by hand (even keeping it within limits results in enough of a change to be seen). Simples.
You can also show how the governor works when you start the aircraft by letting them see during the run up how the governor kicks in at 80% and then maintains things in the the green at the top end.
So everybody on here really is in a flap for no real reason other than a poorly titled thread.
So leave the governor on and simply explain to your student how it all works, how it can be over ridden and make minor adjustments to the throttle by hand (even keeping it within limits results in enough of a change to be seen). Simples.
You can also show how the governor works when you start the aircraft by letting them see during the run up how the governor kicks in at 80% and then maintains things in the the green at the top end.
So everybody on here really is in a flap for no real reason other than a poorly titled thread.
Rotorvation 
Nigel, sorry live in the real world. EOL's are easy, probably done over 2/3000 teaching people, haven't yet stuffed a machine in ( don't fly R22 though ) yet.
It is physiological though, if the student knows he can do it then it is a stressor gone if it happens for real ! The problem is the instructors and the nanny state not being capable enough to teach them / let them happen. We are breeding a bunch of very incapable pilots under the new regime !
We will be stopped from teaching tail rotor problems soon as well, in fact why not teach everyone in a sim, no chance of an accident happening then !!!
Nigel, sorry live in the real world. EOL's are easy, probably done over 2/3000 teaching people, haven't yet stuffed a machine in ( don't fly R22 though ) yet.
It is physiological though, if the student knows he can do it then it is a stressor gone if it happens for real ! The problem is the instructors and the nanny state not being capable enough to teach them / let them happen. We are breeding a bunch of very incapable pilots under the new regime !
We will be stopped from teaching tail rotor problems soon as well, in fact why not teach everyone in a sim, no chance of an accident happening then !!!
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Mister Bonkers
MB,
I agree your technique for Ex 4 will be absolutely fine. You can always demonstrate difference between Gov On and Off on the ground at full ERPM/RRPM. Nothing to prevent that in the manual and I have always found doing so before getting airborne reassures me that the student understands the finesse required. Better than having their first go in flight when over controlling can lead to an interesting time.
My experience is that at Ex 4, most students are bombarded with so much information that they don't fully appreciate the role of the governor anyway and are much better placed to understand its operation pre-solo with a good few hours under the belt.
Only problem I see is the demonstration of effects of disc loading and airspeed on RPM. The student will get little out of a demonstration with Gov on. I assume that the CAA expect these specific requirements of the syllabus AMC 1 FCL.210.H (d) (v) (B) to be covered under the Emergency procedures as well. A bit of guidance wouldn't go amiss.
I agree your technique for Ex 4 will be absolutely fine. You can always demonstrate difference between Gov On and Off on the ground at full ERPM/RRPM. Nothing to prevent that in the manual and I have always found doing so before getting airborne reassures me that the student understands the finesse required. Better than having their first go in flight when over controlling can lead to an interesting time.
My experience is that at Ex 4, most students are bombarded with so much information that they don't fully appreciate the role of the governor anyway and are much better placed to understand its operation pre-solo with a good few hours under the belt.
Only problem I see is the demonstration of effects of disc loading and airspeed on RPM. The student will get little out of a demonstration with Gov on. I assume that the CAA expect these specific requirements of the syllabus AMC 1 FCL.210.H (d) (v) (B) to be covered under the Emergency procedures as well. A bit of guidance wouldn't go amiss.
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EOL's to the ground
Apologies for the thread creep and note that the following is submitted firmly on the understanding that I am touching wood and am not tempting fate in any way.
IF you choose when and where to do EOL's in the R22 they are very straight forward and you can re-engage even right at the last second if the instructor doesn't' like what's developing. Go to experienced examiners who fly the R22 a lot and you will learn that they can be done perfectly safely when appropriate. There is no need to do them in unfavourable conditions or complicate them with unnecessarily difficult entry points - 500' downwind off airfield etc. all that can be handled with in power recoveries. The point of an EOL to the ground is to give the student a confidence booster that they can do it if they have to but there is no point in habitually throwing helicopters at the ground at every opportunity in all manner of conditions. We can't simulate every possible scenario and landing surface and would certainly bend far more helicopters if we tried. The important thing is to get the helicopter down to hover height with minimal forward speed and rate of descent with straight skids - after that your touch down surface is in the lap of the gods - but if you have confidence in the surface integrity, why not put them on the ground when conditions are right.
IF you choose when and where to do EOL's in the R22 they are very straight forward and you can re-engage even right at the last second if the instructor doesn't' like what's developing. Go to experienced examiners who fly the R22 a lot and you will learn that they can be done perfectly safely when appropriate. There is no need to do them in unfavourable conditions or complicate them with unnecessarily difficult entry points - 500' downwind off airfield etc. all that can be handled with in power recoveries. The point of an EOL to the ground is to give the student a confidence booster that they can do it if they have to but there is no point in habitually throwing helicopters at the ground at every opportunity in all manner of conditions. We can't simulate every possible scenario and landing surface and would certainly bend far more helicopters if we tried. The important thing is to get the helicopter down to hover height with minimal forward speed and rate of descent with straight skids - after that your touch down surface is in the lap of the gods - but if you have confidence in the surface integrity, why not put them on the ground when conditions are right.