FAA mandates replacement of R22 & R44 main rotorblades
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Blakmax. Thanks for being on channel.
I just said to the missus I am going over here to see if I can find you to help put some sense into this.
My question. Disregarding why the hell something more positive wasn't done internationally on the first incident, the question we must now ask is, "can there be a professional metallurgist examination to establish in each case the crack progressive history"? That - for a professional - "should?" be an easy task. We have all got R22's running around now with the same design in their new blades.
I.E. The case photographed had at least enough time to land after vibrations noticed. We need to know the time interval between vibes felt and landing effected on the first machine, and we need to find out ASAP what the operational history of each aircraft was - WARTS an ALL.
VF - get rooted, this is serious.
cheers tet
I just said to the missus I am going over here to see if I can find you to help put some sense into this.
My question. Disregarding why the hell something more positive wasn't done internationally on the first incident, the question we must now ask is, "can there be a professional metallurgist examination to establish in each case the crack progressive history"? That - for a professional - "should?" be an easy task. We have all got R22's running around now with the same design in their new blades.
I.E. The case photographed had at least enough time to land after vibrations noticed. We need to know the time interval between vibes felt and landing effected on the first machine, and we need to find out ASAP what the operational history of each aircraft was - WARTS an ALL.
VF - get rooted, this is serious.
cheers tet
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TET
Tet
There may be an element of stress concentration at the curve in the back of the blade, and it is possible that a nick in the metal led to cracking. However, there may also be underlying issues.
I have a good friend in NZ who is a qualified crash investigator and he is a specialist in failure forensics. His company is Prosolve. He and I worked together on the crash of DQ-IHE which was most probably as a result of blade break-up in flight. I did the adhesive bonding failure forensics issues and he did the rest.
I think we both would like to get access to this blade.
I'll send you a PM.
Blakmax
There may be an element of stress concentration at the curve in the back of the blade, and it is possible that a nick in the metal led to cracking. However, there may also be underlying issues.
I have a good friend in NZ who is a qualified crash investigator and he is a specialist in failure forensics. His company is Prosolve. He and I worked together on the crash of DQ-IHE which was most probably as a result of blade break-up in flight. I did the adhesive bonding failure forensics issues and he did the rest.
I think we both would like to get access to this blade.
I'll send you a PM.
Blakmax
R44 fuel consumption
My R44's (both Raven 1 and now Raven 2) use 50 lt of Avgas per engine Hobbs hour (about 55 lt per flying Hobbs hour). This fairly constant (short term average, regardless of pilot) as well as over 14 years of ownership.
(Edit 2.4.2016: Fuel flow increases to 65 lt per flying Hobbs hour when fully loaded AND using maximum continuous power for maximum speed.)
70 lt or more is unheard of.
(Edit 2.4.2016: Fuel flow increases to 65 lt per flying Hobbs hour when fully loaded AND using maximum continuous power for maximum speed.)
70 lt or more is unheard of.
Last edited by Hot and Hi; 2nd Apr 2016 at 16:57. Reason: Added peak fuel consumption at MTOW and MCP
For those that are having trouble joining the dots.
Try a wee bit of this -
Try a wee bit of this -
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R44 Blades
I have just read the above threads and I cannot believe that there is so much conjecture regarding -7 blades when they haven't even been examined by Robinson to determine if it was a manufacturing defect or a stress fracture from overloading the airframe
No one has even asked the simple question of what type of work the R44 that landed safely with the cracked blade was used for, from which I understand that it was used for spraying.
Every a/c fixed wing or rotary wing has design limitations and it usually real life activities that push those limits where ultimately failures and sadly deaths occur but there is never any finger pointing to an operator exceeding those limitations just a wall of outrage at the manufacturer who should replace at no cost and is always making money out of the owners
This is a knee jerk reaction to as yet to be confirmed perceived blade design problem until there is an ultimate conclusive solution the R44 is as safe as any other single engined helicopter
No one has even asked the simple question of what type of work the R44 that landed safely with the cracked blade was used for, from which I understand that it was used for spraying.
Every a/c fixed wing or rotary wing has design limitations and it usually real life activities that push those limits where ultimately failures and sadly deaths occur but there is never any finger pointing to an operator exceeding those limitations just a wall of outrage at the manufacturer who should replace at no cost and is always making money out of the owners
This is a knee jerk reaction to as yet to be confirmed perceived blade design problem until there is an ultimate conclusive solution the R44 is as safe as any other single engined helicopter
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Robbieengineer,
Why did New Zealand ground the entire fleet? Huh????
Are you calling them knee jerkers??
Your poster name suggests you work on Robinsons. Care to explain their repeated blade ADs and their abject failure to make a blade that won't break up in flight??
THERE ARE REPEATED INCIDENTS OF IN-FLIGHT MAIN ROTOR BREAK-UPS WHERE THE FLIGHT CONDITIONS WERE PERFECTLY NORMAL.
Care to explain those????
This is life or death. Not some bs "Robinson is great" thread. It's crystal clear there are deep seated problems in Robby's blade manufacturing process. Anyone who claims otherwise is just showing their sheer stupidity.
Why did New Zealand ground the entire fleet? Huh????
Are you calling them knee jerkers??
Your poster name suggests you work on Robinsons. Care to explain their repeated blade ADs and their abject failure to make a blade that won't break up in flight??
THERE ARE REPEATED INCIDENTS OF IN-FLIGHT MAIN ROTOR BREAK-UPS WHERE THE FLIGHT CONDITIONS WERE PERFECTLY NORMAL.
Care to explain those????
This is life or death. Not some bs "Robinson is great" thread. It's crystal clear there are deep seated problems in Robby's blade manufacturing process. Anyone who claims otherwise is just showing their sheer stupidity.
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If one wants good reading go back in time, research, and read the amount of AD's, AWD's and service bulletins on blades from Bell, Hughes (MDHC), Airbus, Sikorsky, Kaman, etc.....some of which were also catastrophic failures in flight.
They have all had their problems....!!!!!!
They have all had their problems....!!!!!!
Robbieengineer - First off the FIRST incident about three weeks ago was an ag machine, this one a couple of days ago was a tourism machine and knowing both operators I highly doubt they would be overstressed or pushed past the limits.
Secondly - If the accident investigators who attended the crash scene found something that caused them enough concern to ground all other 44s with -7 blades then I doubt they would have done that lightly. I spoke to one of them on the phone and based on what they told me they saw they did the right thing.
Give the NZ CAA investigators and Louisa Patterson a call and tell them its a knee jerk reaction.
Secondly - If the accident investigators who attended the crash scene found something that caused them enough concern to ground all other 44s with -7 blades then I doubt they would have done that lightly. I spoke to one of them on the phone and based on what they told me they saw they did the right thing.
Give the NZ CAA investigators and Louisa Patterson a call and tell them its a knee jerk reaction.
R44 fuel consumption
Apologies Helihog:
Inside this thread the R44's fuel consumption was discussed a few days ago in various posts between 4 and 7 Feb 2015. I was responding to one of the posts in this thread where members gave their opinion about R44 fuel consumption being 75 lt / hr. (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=8852947)
I thought it would be useful to give 'actuals' from somebody who has operated this a/c type for over 10 years.
I clicked the "respond" button directly inside this post, I didn't realise that our Forum software doesn't automatically reference the post that I am responding to.
As you can see I have only started posting recently, so please bear with me. I also only just now figured out how to 'properly' quote somebody, so that the quoted text appears in a nice blue box
.
Not sure hot and hi what that has to do with a thread on m/r blades...
I thought it would be useful to give 'actuals' from somebody who has operated this a/c type for over 10 years.
I clicked the "respond" button directly inside this post, I didn't realise that our Forum software doesn't automatically reference the post that I am responding to.
As you can see I have only started posting recently, so please bear with me. I also only just now figured out how to 'properly' quote somebody, so that the quoted text appears in a nice blue box
.
Last edited by Hot and Hi; 22nd Feb 2015 at 07:41. Reason: Learned how to use HMTL tags to 'correctly' quote
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yes I do have extensive knowledge of these and other rotary aircraft and do not care to make ill-informed comments in an industry and forum that seeks to make scape goats out of hear say and conjecture
these blades have been in service for many years now and in Australia which has an extensive fleet of r22,r44 & r66 aircraft there has been little to report of failure let alone fatalities relating to these or the previous -5 & -2 blades
until the first set of blades are properly examined by robinson only then can we say there is a problem. until then then yes this is a knee jerk reaction that will hit many poor operators who are doing the right thing and yes this will impact the maintainers too
casa has done this in response to their bladder tank debacle let us all never forget that people did perish in those terrible accidents but all were due to pilot error not due to an unsafe aircraft
if we look at aircraft throughout aviation they have all hade their pitfalls
didn't the americans call the as350 the falling star?
these blades have been in service for many years now and in Australia which has an extensive fleet of r22,r44 & r66 aircraft there has been little to report of failure let alone fatalities relating to these or the previous -5 & -2 blades
until the first set of blades are properly examined by robinson only then can we say there is a problem. until then then yes this is a knee jerk reaction that will hit many poor operators who are doing the right thing and yes this will impact the maintainers too
casa has done this in response to their bladder tank debacle let us all never forget that people did perish in those terrible accidents but all were due to pilot error not due to an unsafe aircraft
if we look at aircraft throughout aviation they have all hade their pitfalls
didn't the americans call the as350 the falling star?
Robbieengineer
So if you make an error in a R44, you deserve to die burnt alive.
And your passengers too because they should have choose a "good" pilot.
.
casa has done this in response to their bladder tank debacle let us all never forget that people did perish in those terrible accidents but all were due to pilot error not due to an unsafe aircraft
So if you make an error in a R44, you deserve to die burnt alive.
And your passengers too because they should have choose a "good" pilot.
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 22nd Feb 2015 at 08:03.
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Robbie Engineer
Maybe you and I live in a different Australia?
Here are three after a very short search:
aair200302820_001 VH OHA 20 Jun 2003 2 fatalities blade failure
aair200701625_001 VH HPI 15 Mar 2007 skin separation landed safely
ASIB 200300316, VH-AIC 12 Feb 2003 skin separation resulting in crash 1 injured
As I have stated elsewhere I know of one overseas case of probable blade failure due to adhesive bond degradation and those blades were inspected twice by tap test and three visual inspections within 80 hours of the crash.
Please don't insult our intelligence with the "nothing to see here...Move on" attitude.
Regards
Blakmax
Maybe you and I live in a different Australia?
these blades have been in service for many years now and in Australia which has an extensive fleet of r22,r44 & r66 aircraft there has been little to report of failure let alone fatalities relating to these or the previous -5 & -2 blades
aair200302820_001 VH OHA 20 Jun 2003 2 fatalities blade failure
aair200701625_001 VH HPI 15 Mar 2007 skin separation landed safely
ASIB 200300316, VH-AIC 12 Feb 2003 skin separation resulting in crash 1 injured
As I have stated elsewhere I know of one overseas case of probable blade failure due to adhesive bond degradation and those blades were inspected twice by tap test and three visual inspections within 80 hours of the crash.
Please don't insult our intelligence with the "nothing to see here...Move on" attitude.
Regards
Blakmax
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Robbieengineer,
Australia (YOUR claimed country of residence) just grounded all R44 aircraft. I suppose they are succumbing to "knee-jerk" reactions, also??
I noticed that you are a brand new poster here. It's plain to see your agenda.
Go away unless you can add anything remotely resembling sane remarks.
I've read this site for a long time, and you're plainly the biggest idiot to ever grace these pages.
PS
I'm merely a long time owner of Robinson helicopters who has grown weary and wary of the main rotor failures of Robinson Helicopters. It hasn't only happened in "bad" environments with over-stressed components and timed-out machinery. These blade failures have occurred repeatedly in well-maintained helicopters used in normal conditions.
YOU KNOW THIS AND I KNOW THIS TO BE ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
Australia (YOUR claimed country of residence) just grounded all R44 aircraft. I suppose they are succumbing to "knee-jerk" reactions, also??
I noticed that you are a brand new poster here. It's plain to see your agenda.
Go away unless you can add anything remotely resembling sane remarks.
I've read this site for a long time, and you're plainly the biggest idiot to ever grace these pages.
PS
I'm merely a long time owner of Robinson helicopters who has grown weary and wary of the main rotor failures of Robinson Helicopters. It hasn't only happened in "bad" environments with over-stressed components and timed-out machinery. These blade failures have occurred repeatedly in well-maintained helicopters used in normal conditions.
YOU KNOW THIS AND I KNOW THIS TO BE ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
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Moderators,
Please consider banning the moron calling himself Robbieengineer.
He is recently registered and his only posts clearly show his fool's agenda:
Trying to defend an obviously serious issue with asinine remarks. My bet
is he's either got a financial stake in Robinson or he's 12 years old.
Please consider banning the moron calling himself Robbieengineer.
He is recently registered and his only posts clearly show his fool's agenda:
Trying to defend an obviously serious issue with asinine remarks. My bet
is he's either got a financial stake in Robinson or he's 12 years old.
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Crikey Snoopy, we agree on the lack of sense in these postings:
Actually the Appendix to aair200302820_001 VH OHA lists details of two blades with disbonds in the root fitting with ZERO flight hours. They disbonded in storage. I can just see Robbo Engineers explanation "Maybe they dropped the box".
I was hoping that the issue of bond manufacturing processes had been addressed in the -7 blades. The recent ADs relate to cracking which may or may not be a consequence of bonding issues. We will wait and see. Hopefully the Kiwis have expertise in bond issues which may (or may not) provide causal effects rather than just focusing on the crack.
As a specialist in the field of adhesive bond failure forensics I can assure everyone that interfacial failure is NOT caused by loads. It is directly related to the processes used for surface preparation at the time of manufacture, and the disbonds I have seen exhibit lots of adhesion failure. There is also a lot of mixed-mode failure which is a mixture of weak adhesion failure and some cohesion failure. Cohesion failure is the strongest, and in all the surfaces I examined there was not a trace of true cohesion failure.
This issue is too important to be fobbed of by Robbo.
Regards
Blakmax
PS welcome back Snoopy.
It hasn't only happened in "bad" environments with over-stressed components and timed-out machinery.
I was hoping that the issue of bond manufacturing processes had been addressed in the -7 blades. The recent ADs relate to cracking which may or may not be a consequence of bonding issues. We will wait and see. Hopefully the Kiwis have expertise in bond issues which may (or may not) provide causal effects rather than just focusing on the crack.
As a specialist in the field of adhesive bond failure forensics I can assure everyone that interfacial failure is NOT caused by loads. It is directly related to the processes used for surface preparation at the time of manufacture, and the disbonds I have seen exhibit lots of adhesion failure. There is also a lot of mixed-mode failure which is a mixture of weak adhesion failure and some cohesion failure. Cohesion failure is the strongest, and in all the surfaces I examined there was not a trace of true cohesion failure.
This issue is too important to be fobbed of by Robbo.
Regards
Blakmax
PS welcome back Snoopy.
Last edited by blakmax; 22nd Feb 2015 at 09:08. Reason: Added comment about -7 blades
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Moderators,
Please consider banning the moron calling himself Robbieengineer.
He is recently registered and his only posts clearly show his fool's agenda:
Trying to defend an obviously serious issue with asinine remarks. My bet
is he's either got a financial stake in Robinson or he's 12 years old.
Please consider banning the moron calling himself Robbieengineer.
He is recently registered and his only posts clearly show his fool's agenda:
Trying to defend an obviously serious issue with asinine remarks. My bet
is he's either got a financial stake in Robinson or he's 12 years old.
Please do not consider banning Robbieengineer.
He is recently registered and his only posts clearly show his "different point of view" agenda:
Trying to defend an obviously serious issue with a differing point of view. My bet
is he's either got a financial stake in Robinson or he just wants to put the other side across for discussion.
I don't like Robbies either but I always like to see both sides of an argument / discussion and make my own mind up.
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Clarification
Chopjock
Just to be clear. I agree with Snoopy's assessment of the sense involved in the postings. I do not agree that Robbo Eng needs to be banned. Indeed, there have been suggestions that as a non pilot I should not post here.
Up front, I am a firm believer in the power of persuasion. If R/E can back up his statements, then let him. I have expressed my opinion, let him express his. It is pretty damned hard to defend the indefensible.
However given the "follow the party line" tenor of his postings, I suspect you are right:
Or maybe he is an employee or local rep?
Regards
Blakmax
Just to be clear. I agree with Snoopy's assessment of the sense involved in the postings. I do not agree that Robbo Eng needs to be banned. Indeed, there have been suggestions that as a non pilot I should not post here.
Up front, I am a firm believer in the power of persuasion. If R/E can back up his statements, then let him. I have expressed my opinion, let him express his. It is pretty damned hard to defend the indefensible.
However given the "follow the party line" tenor of his postings, I suspect you are right:
he's either got a financial stake in Robinson....
Regards
Blakmax
Calendar Life Maybe - Like 206 TT Straps
Hope they dont go for Calendar Life. We all know how expensive the TT Straps are to replace after 2 years Flown or Not Flown on a 206