Grand Canyon Accident: Pilot killed in AS350 rollover
You can't have it all ways:
1. If the RFM prohibits it - don't do it - endex.
If the RFM (Bronx this is for you in mono syllables, just in case) such as the B3e doesn't mention it, it is because section 2.1 covers it: One flight crew in the RH seat. IF a helicopter is burning and turning (at idle or otherwise) then it is deemd to be in a state of 'flight' because YOU ARE LOGGING THIS FLIGHT TIME - Bronx. Don't try to tell me otherwise. No-one will tell me they stop logging flight time everytime they go to idle or sit on the deck for minutes on end doing nothing and then start logging time once they wind the throttle(s) up and or go flying again. So the cab is deemed to be in flight mode during this hiatus in the actual flight - Thus a pilot MUST / SHALL be present and in the R H seat. Endex. Capiche?
So the pilot who exited his 350B3e for a fluid check exited against the RFM rules. QED.
Cotteral - you are in the wrong section, you need - wannabees.
SuperF - no need to ban anything - it is already prohibited from leaving a cab which is running.
LASJayhawk - if your ops 'demands' that you cannot shut down everytime - then negotiate with the OEM's to change the RFM. It's not easy but if a major player in the fraternity feels the need to do this - it will happen and you will get an exemption.
1. If the RFM prohibits it - don't do it - endex.
If the RFM (Bronx this is for you in mono syllables, just in case) such as the B3e doesn't mention it, it is because section 2.1 covers it: One flight crew in the RH seat. IF a helicopter is burning and turning (at idle or otherwise) then it is deemd to be in a state of 'flight' because YOU ARE LOGGING THIS FLIGHT TIME - Bronx. Don't try to tell me otherwise. No-one will tell me they stop logging flight time everytime they go to idle or sit on the deck for minutes on end doing nothing and then start logging time once they wind the throttle(s) up and or go flying again. So the cab is deemed to be in flight mode during this hiatus in the actual flight - Thus a pilot MUST / SHALL be present and in the R H seat. Endex. Capiche?
So the pilot who exited his 350B3e for a fluid check exited against the RFM rules. QED.
Cotteral - you are in the wrong section, you need - wannabees.
SuperF - no need to ban anything - it is already prohibited from leaving a cab which is running.
LASJayhawk - if your ops 'demands' that you cannot shut down everytime - then negotiate with the OEM's to change the RFM. It's not easy but if a major player in the fraternity feels the need to do this - it will happen and you will get an exemption.
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TC,
Umm, that's exactly what I do.
Every single time I land I write down the time, then just before I pull pitch I write the time down again. Up to 60 times a day. Client gets charged running time, machine gets air time (I would say flight but I'm afraid it would confuse you further than you already are) and I log the time I was in the air. Flight time. Time the Helicopter was in Flight. In the air. Not on the ground. Simple.
It is required by my governing body and my company so that's what I do. I have logged running time when required by a different governing body and different company. Same type of helicopter. I am a firm believer that Flight time means in the air.
I agree 100% that I am responsible for the helicopter until I have tied the blades down and turned the battery off. If someone walks into the machine, I am responsible. Not arguing with you there, but if I am loading passengers and my machine is running, legally allowed where I work, I am not flying. I am standing outside loading passengers. The machine is not in flight and I am not logging flight time for me or the machine. Clients are going to be charged for it though.
All these fancy definitions but have you looked in a dictionary - try an English one if you like. I think you may be quite surprised.
Umm, that's exactly what I do.
Every single time I land I write down the time, then just before I pull pitch I write the time down again. Up to 60 times a day. Client gets charged running time, machine gets air time (I would say flight but I'm afraid it would confuse you further than you already are) and I log the time I was in the air. Flight time. Time the Helicopter was in Flight. In the air. Not on the ground. Simple.
It is required by my governing body and my company so that's what I do. I have logged running time when required by a different governing body and different company. Same type of helicopter. I am a firm believer that Flight time means in the air.
I agree 100% that I am responsible for the helicopter until I have tied the blades down and turned the battery off. If someone walks into the machine, I am responsible. Not arguing with you there, but if I am loading passengers and my machine is running, legally allowed where I work, I am not flying. I am standing outside loading passengers. The machine is not in flight and I am not logging flight time for me or the machine. Clients are going to be charged for it though.
All these fancy definitions but have you looked in a dictionary - try an English one if you like. I think you may be quite surprised.
Last edited by canterbury crusader; 5th Jun 2014 at 11:56. Reason: spelling
Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?
You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.
The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.
You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.
The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft. ISTR R22s have an hours run meter which relates to rotors turning time, not airborne time for exactly this reason.
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canterbury crusader
Good post.
That might be a bit tricky for TC to grasp.
Have you got any pictures to illustrate what you're saying?
crab
Whether it is or it isn't doesn't change the fact that when he's standing outside the helicopter he sure ain't flying it.
Good post.
if I am loading passengers and my machine is running, legally allowed where I work, I am not flying. I am standing outside loading passengers.
Have you got any pictures to illustrate what you're saying?
crab
Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals
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I have never been required to log running time in a tech log or maintenance release regardless of the country I was working nor have I every heard of it happening.
In regards to the R22 I believe there are calculations in regards to how much flight time has happened if you log engine time. Haven't flown one for a long time and never worked on one so possibly wrong on that. Will leave that one at that.
Every company I have worked for log air time for the aircraft. That's what the manufacturers ask for. Bear in mind most machines were designed more than 40 years ago when Flight time meant flight time.
In regards to the R22 I believe there are calculations in regards to how much flight time has happened if you log engine time. Haven't flown one for a long time and never worked on one so possibly wrong on that. Will leave that one at that.
Every company I have worked for log air time for the aircraft. That's what the manufacturers ask for. Bear in mind most machines were designed more than 40 years ago when Flight time meant flight time.
"Just a pilot"
Further to Canterbury Crusader, the largest HEMS provider in the USA defines lift to touchdown as the flight time to be recorded. Time spent on the ground, rotors turning is not flight time. Minimum flight creww has nothing to do with non-flight operations. Anyhow, that is how I've logged flight time, exactly time spent manipulating the controls for the purpose of flight since 1968. I've spent thousands of hours at ground and flight idle, in the boonies, day and night; off-shore, day and night; country-side; city-scapes; roof-tops; highways and byways; a rail right of way or two.
The company also permits their AS350 pilots to leave the controls, rotors turning. The process allowing that is defined in the FAA approved operations manual. Contrary to the assertions of some, it is not a casual event, undertaken without regard to risk. The PIC is always responsible. I have done so on occasion when I felt it required.
Whether or not one can imagine a circumstance where it is a better choice than shutting down, your lack of imagination isn't sufficient justification to deprive the pilot on scene of an option. The FAA does not prohibit it. The RFM may permit it. The owner allows it. The PIC might evaluate risk and decide it to be reasonable. All these are directly accountable and have standing to exercise control.
An aside- do any of your maintenance personnel hold run-up authorization????
The company also permits their AS350 pilots to leave the controls, rotors turning. The process allowing that is defined in the FAA approved operations manual. Contrary to the assertions of some, it is not a casual event, undertaken without regard to risk. The PIC is always responsible. I have done so on occasion when I felt it required.
Whether or not one can imagine a circumstance where it is a better choice than shutting down, your lack of imagination isn't sufficient justification to deprive the pilot on scene of an option. The FAA does not prohibit it. The RFM may permit it. The owner allows it. The PIC might evaluate risk and decide it to be reasonable. All these are directly accountable and have standing to exercise control.
An aside- do any of your maintenance personnel hold run-up authorization????
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Bronx,
Be careful, you will be accused of trying to start a Spam/Brit fight!
When we over hear say things like that about them over there, they get awfully snippy. You should be prepared to take hostile fire from Brits over your comment as they just do not grasp things American including your Big Apple Humor.
Be careful, you will be accused of trying to start a Spam/Brit fight!
When we over hear say things like that about them over there, they get awfully snippy. You should be prepared to take hostile fire from Brits over your comment as they just do not grasp things American including your Big Apple Humor.
Canterbury - are you sure that is not just a way of your employer extending the servicing intervals on the aircraft by claiming it is not flying when it is rotors turning on the ground?
You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.
The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft.
You may not be airborne but the engine is still having to turn the gearbox which is still dragging the blades around plus the TR drive and any other ancillaries.
The manufacturers will have calculated the fatigue spectrum of the aircraft and I am pretty sure they would agree that rotors turning on the ground is still fatiguing the aircraft.
(without entering the general fray of this thread, but to clarify this specific point) it is entirely normal to only log airborne time in the tech log, and this is the time used for service intervals and component life compliance. Aircraft with HUMS will record this for you. The OEMs will agree that time on the ground running is fatiguing, but this is factored into their limits based on experience (of typical usage).
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Originally Posted by Thomas coupling
If the RFM ... such as the B3e doesn't mention it, it is because section 2.1 covers it: One flight crew in the RH seat.
In the end, your opinion doesn't have any bearing on reality or the situation at hand.
Originally Posted by Boudreaux Bob
...they just do not grasp things American including your Big Apple Humor.
Originally Posted by Thomas coupling
Cotteral - you are in the wrong section, you need - wannabees.
I'm coming to the US for a 3-week holiday (vacation) later this month, I'll try to practice my sarcasm-recognition skills before I get there
I will even be going on a helicopter trip over the Grand Canyon so I will make sure I don't cause offence to anyone operating a helicopter in an un-British fashion.
OK back to flight time vs running time.......................................
I will even be going on a helicopter trip over the Grand Canyon so I will make sure I don't cause offence to anyone operating a helicopter in an un-British fashion.
OK back to flight time vs running time.......................................
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I therefore strongly recommend this candidate for the Darwin Trophy. RiP.
You can keep your personal snide remarks about his intelligence and his airman ship to yourself unless you would like to meet in person and we can discuss your piss poor attitude face to face.
While I see what your trying to do (at least it seems like your trying to advocate for more safety in flight ops) you sound like an assh*ole.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
"I'll ask again, why are you so obsessed with creating a violation of policy/procedure/regulation where there clearly isn't one?"
I don't want to create anything I'm just amazed that an authority allows an activity that is so potentially dangerous.
When it came to making up the regulations, did they look at the model, the link of which was posted earlier, looked at the bit that says;
... and thought, "Tell you what, we'll group all aircraft in one and leave off any mention or reference to power ..... what could possibly go wrong!
Oh, how they must chuckle on their way to the enquiries.
I don't want to create anything I'm just amazed that an authority allows an activity that is so potentially dangerous.
When it came to making up the regulations, did they look at the model, the link of which was posted earlier, looked at the bit that says;
(228) Flight time. The period of time that the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after it is parked, with engine(s) shut down if applicable.
Note: Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term "block-to-block" time or "chock-to-chock" time in general usage, which is measured from the time an aircraft moves from the loading point until it stops at the unloading point.
(229) Flight time— aeroplane. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
(230) Flight time—helicopter. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.
(231) Flight time—glider. The total time occupied in flight, whether being towed or not, from the moment the glider first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.
Note: Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term "block-to-block" time or "chock-to-chock" time in general usage, which is measured from the time an aircraft moves from the loading point until it stops at the unloading point.
(229) Flight time— aeroplane. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
(230) Flight time—helicopter. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.
(231) Flight time—glider. The total time occupied in flight, whether being towed or not, from the moment the glider first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.
Oh, how they must chuckle on their way to the enquiries.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Boudreaux Bob
YIKES! No Droop in the Blades and no Pilot attending the Controls! Sound the Crash Alarm....Go!
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/...C7727DE6F8.jpg
YIKES! No Droop in the Blades and no Pilot attending the Controls! Sound the Crash Alarm....Go!
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/...C7727DE6F8.jpg
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 5th Jun 2014 at 17:31. Reason: Zoomed pic removed due to size
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jecottrell;
I suspect it's easier targeting a guy that isn't around to stand up for himself, than a guy that is.
I suspect it's easier targeting a guy that isn't around to stand up for himself, than a guy that is.
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With your keen focus I am surprised the obvious has missed you by so far. Keep up the good work and maybe you will get there yet.
Maybe we need to be far more subtle in the future to provoke you to look well into the issues.
I will modify my post. Add an "If" at the start and that should make it accurate.
Maybe we need to be far more subtle in the future to provoke you to look well into the issues.
I will modify my post. Add an "If" at the start and that should make it accurate.