Bristow AW189
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The bank of four seats may get removed, maybe.
More fool you if you choose to get airborne without paper maps and put all your eggs in the basket of electronic mapping.
VSF,
Am I right in assuming you have seen the SAR 139's up close?
The seats in the 189 pic will not be the seats used for SAR. These are standard O&G pax seats but you already knew that I am sure.
The seats that will most likely be used are the troop seat which are of smaller design, fold up, and you could have a bank of four along the front bulk head, but I am sure you have already thought that one through. You could then have a further two troop seats in the other corners either side of where the tunnel will be through to the boot giving a total of 6 seats in the back, but I am telling you what you already know I guess?
As for total reliance on electronic mapping systems I did not say this is what should be done and I agree only perhaps the fool hardy would do so but with flight mapping systems as good as they are now do you really need to take dozens of charts with you?
I guess you have used a recent electronic flight mapping system displayed on large screen with all CAA and OS maps. It's quick, easy and effective? Tap in the position and hey presto there it is. Eyes can remain outside at low level, situational awareness is improved and therefore a far safer operation, or are you one of the dinosaurs who cannot accept modernisation?
This is happening. You alone are not going to bring the 189 down. If you have not seen one of the SAR 139's up close then I suggest you try and have a look at one before moaning as to where you are going to keep all this kit.
You don't need a SK size helicopter to store all the SAR kit. Nice to have but not essential.
Am I right in assuming you have seen the SAR 139's up close?
The seats in the 189 pic will not be the seats used for SAR. These are standard O&G pax seats but you already knew that I am sure.
The seats that will most likely be used are the troop seat which are of smaller design, fold up, and you could have a bank of four along the front bulk head, but I am sure you have already thought that one through. You could then have a further two troop seats in the other corners either side of where the tunnel will be through to the boot giving a total of 6 seats in the back, but I am telling you what you already know I guess?
As for total reliance on electronic mapping systems I did not say this is what should be done and I agree only perhaps the fool hardy would do so but with flight mapping systems as good as they are now do you really need to take dozens of charts with you?
I guess you have used a recent electronic flight mapping system displayed on large screen with all CAA and OS maps. It's quick, easy and effective? Tap in the position and hey presto there it is. Eyes can remain outside at low level, situational awareness is improved and therefore a far safer operation, or are you one of the dinosaurs who cannot accept modernisation?
This is happening. You alone are not going to bring the 189 down. If you have not seen one of the SAR 139's up close then I suggest you try and have a look at one before moaning as to where you are going to keep all this kit.
You don't need a SK size helicopter to store all the SAR kit. Nice to have but not essential.
Yes time will tell and it would seem you have the realism issue together with many others.
This is real, the 189 is real and it will be doing the job sooner or later. It has to.
I remember all the 139 skeptics 7 or so years ago moaning about the same things you are moaning about. After a little bit of work it was doing the job successfully and all the know alls had to get back in their boxes.
Change the record.
This is real, the 189 is real and it will be doing the job sooner or later. It has to.
I remember all the 139 skeptics 7 or so years ago moaning about the same things you are moaning about. After a little bit of work it was doing the job successfully and all the know alls had to get back in their boxes.
Change the record.
Eyes can remain outside at low level, situational awareness is improved and therefore a far safer operation, or are you one of the dinosaurs who cannot accept modernisation?
Much has been made of how modern technology is the saviour of UK SAR; it is hyperbole and most of this 'new' technology is old hat - where are the heads-up displays or DNVG in the brave new SAR world? Things that might actually make things safer?
I remember all the 139 skeptics 7 or so years ago moaning about the same things you are moaning about. After a little bit of work it was doing the job successfully and all the know alls had to get back in their boxes.
Oh and the 139 didn't have to prove how inadequate its ground clearance was for sloping ground (read mountain) landings whereas the 189 will!
Anyone who claims that digital mapping displays do not constitute progress is, quite franky, talking hoop. Once mastered (which doesn't take long) the increased situational awareness, especially during times of high workload, is of great value. A good example is conducting a low-level abort due to poor weather and having to quickly adjust from working on VFR to IFR charts. This previously involved scrabbling around in the cockpit changing and re-folding maps and quickly having to transfer your position to the new chart. All quite do-able I admit but far simpler when using a modern digital display that simply involves a couple of presses of a button.
Also, having to carry charts in case the system dumps is a bit of a red herring. In the early days of Merlin this is what regulalrly happened until people realised how rare such an event was. I can recall many more examples of maps being lost prior to take-off or being sucked out of open windows/cabin doors than digital mapping systems going tits-up.
Also, having to carry charts in case the system dumps is a bit of a red herring. In the early days of Merlin this is what regulalrly happened until people realised how rare such an event was. I can recall many more examples of maps being lost prior to take-off or being sucked out of open windows/cabin doors than digital mapping systems going tits-up.
llamaman - the claim was made that digital mapping displays kept eyes out of the cockpit more - which isn't true. The shiny TV screen is an eye-magnet for the handling pilot as well as the NHP.
Your example of aborting VFR to IFR is a valid one where just changing the scale of your map with a button press makes life much simpler.
Your example of aborting VFR to IFR is a valid one where just changing the scale of your map with a button press makes life much simpler.
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Oh and the 139 didn't have to prove how inadequate its ground clearance was for sloping ground (read mountain) landings whereas the 189 will!
Is S92 griund clearance significantly different?
Is S92 griund clearance significantly different?
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A good quality crewman will talk the aircraft down such that protrusions from the underside of the aircraft (aerials, nightsuns etc) don't hit the rocks that may form part of the uneven surface. However when the entire belly of the aircraft is so close to even the flattest of surfaces, as appears to be the case with the 189, your options are going to be much more limited. Hope the MRTs enjoy hover jumping.
Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 13th Oct 2014 at 20:23.
The toys hanging under the S-92 are an ongoing problem that affects choices for landings and partial landings.
Downwash from a 12 tonne aircraft is always ... em ... noticeable. If power is applied to maintain ground clearance of a landed aircraft then working around the aircraft becomes more difficult. However, if you work with S-92 regularly, that isn't news!
Last edited by jimf671; 13th Oct 2014 at 20:35.
Crab,
I assume you don't use a digital mapping system then because if you did/have you would realise your comments have no relevance.
Your eyes spend less time buried in the cockpit as all that is required is a quick glimpse just like looking at your instruments. You cannot do that with a map/chart and I will not even mention about referring to a map/chart at night, low level, poor vis.
You carry on with your hard copies, they work but one day if you get to try a good digital mapping system properly then go on be a devil and have a go. You don't need to tell anyone.
Do any of your crewman carry iPads?
I assume you don't use a digital mapping system then because if you did/have you would realise your comments have no relevance.
Your eyes spend less time buried in the cockpit as all that is required is a quick glimpse just like looking at your instruments. You cannot do that with a map/chart and I will not even mention about referring to a map/chart at night, low level, poor vis.
You carry on with your hard copies, they work but one day if you get to try a good digital mapping system properly then go on be a devil and have a go. You don't need to tell anyone.
Do any of your crewman carry iPads?
Jimf
The 189 will be operating in the Scottish and Welsh mountains out of Inverness/Prestwick/St. Athan (eventually 
) Ground clearance will be an issue but, as with the introduction of any new aircraft, techniques will be adapted to suit.
Are you referring to the Hampshire and Dorset mountains?
) Ground clearance will be an issue but, as with the introduction of any new aircraft, techniques will be adapted to suit.