AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
Avoid imitations
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Alouette, I responded to your criticism of my post.
If you care to look back to my earlier post, I put forward my own thoughts on rules and regulations. There are enough of them in place and the problem comes when people confuse legal with safe, and vice versa. You can easily remain legal and be unsafe, and be illegal and not be unsafe. In the real world, what is of paramount importance is flying within your own abilities, and those of the aircraft and knowing when to to say "no".
Putting yourself in a situation where you knowingly have no safe option is a risk that some will never take, some will do routinely and some will do in certain circumstances. Risk is a moveable feast in any case because it involves subjectivity and perception of risk may change with personal experience.
Pilots and businessmen alike.
If you care to look back to my earlier post, I put forward my own thoughts on rules and regulations. There are enough of them in place and the problem comes when people confuse legal with safe, and vice versa. You can easily remain legal and be unsafe, and be illegal and not be unsafe. In the real world, what is of paramount importance is flying within your own abilities, and those of the aircraft and knowing when to to say "no".
Putting yourself in a situation where you knowingly have no safe option is a risk that some will never take, some will do routinely and some will do in certain circumstances. Risk is a moveable feast in any case because it involves subjectivity and perception of risk may change with personal experience.
Pilots and businessmen alike.
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alouette3
Decision making and airmanship must include operating within the rules. Some rules do have a safety case, and can be used to justify a no-go decision to an owner.
And a pilot low on experience may need to be guided more by the rules, and this thread by clarifying the rules may even prevent a future accident.
In my experience owners are more satisfied when they get specific information, and a pilot may have more confidence in his no-go decision if it can be backed up with specifics.
Accident reports will always mention any non compliances. So without doubt the decision making process includes is it legal? and is it safe? Both are important.
Decision making and airmanship must include operating within the rules. Some rules do have a safety case, and can be used to justify a no-go decision to an owner.
And a pilot low on experience may need to be guided more by the rules, and this thread by clarifying the rules may even prevent a future accident.
In my experience owners are more satisfied when they get specific information, and a pilot may have more confidence in his no-go decision if it can be backed up with specifics.
Accident reports will always mention any non compliances. So without doubt the decision making process includes is it legal? and is it safe? Both are important.
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G550 Driver,
From what I have read so far, there are no rules governing departures in IMC from a private pad or location.Also,by inference, this was not an owner operator who would have taken kindly to one of his underlings saying "no".
Pilot experience is not a safeguard.If you look at all the recent accidents in the US ,UK and Canada,the experience spectrum is wide ranging.
All the accidents in the UK occurred in twin engined ,highly sophisticated aircraft ,designed for IFR flight.That did not prevent people running into cranes,nosing in after take off into trees or striking the water on approach.
All the regulations in the world did not prevent this from happening.As you read through all the posts,you can see the various interpretations.So the regs are not crystal clear to all and are "guidelines" to most.So,I don't see adding further regulations is of any use.
Repeatedly saying that pilots should stand their ground is not an answer at all.It is not just about the paycheck.It is also about the DNA of the pilot population that wants to "get it done". Can't change that.
So, what is the next step? Support the pilot with good supervision.Provide good training and tools. Have a crystal clear SOP.Do not allow the owners to bully their people.
By Jove I've got it! Turn the entire operation over to the RAF, over land, and the RN over sea!The rich can charter helicopters for their personal use and the oil companies can contract the RN for their off shore support!
Simple isn't it? Because obviously the owners, operators and pilots are unable to police themselves and the only response regulators can come up with is more regulations,apparently incomprehensible to the average Joe Pilot.
Alt3.
From what I have read so far, there are no rules governing departures in IMC from a private pad or location.Also,by inference, this was not an owner operator who would have taken kindly to one of his underlings saying "no".
Pilot experience is not a safeguard.If you look at all the recent accidents in the US ,UK and Canada,the experience spectrum is wide ranging.
All the accidents in the UK occurred in twin engined ,highly sophisticated aircraft ,designed for IFR flight.That did not prevent people running into cranes,nosing in after take off into trees or striking the water on approach.
All the regulations in the world did not prevent this from happening.As you read through all the posts,you can see the various interpretations.So the regs are not crystal clear to all and are "guidelines" to most.So,I don't see adding further regulations is of any use.
Repeatedly saying that pilots should stand their ground is not an answer at all.It is not just about the paycheck.It is also about the DNA of the pilot population that wants to "get it done". Can't change that.
So, what is the next step? Support the pilot with good supervision.Provide good training and tools. Have a crystal clear SOP.Do not allow the owners to bully their people.
By Jove I've got it! Turn the entire operation over to the RAF, over land, and the RN over sea!The rich can charter helicopters for their personal use and the oil companies can contract the RN for their off shore support!
Simple isn't it? Because obviously the owners, operators and pilots are unable to police themselves and the only response regulators can come up with is more regulations,apparently incomprehensible to the average Joe Pilot.
Alt3.
As an old fart, offshore based, where we deal in class 1 or cat A procedures, who makes up these names like VMini....?
Is this a plank based database or a genuine helicopter centric language
IMHO, corporate crew have very little experience of zero vis ops, as in we are used to taking off with 400m or less vis and cloud bases less than 100ft, or more importantly from a platform at night with no vis, vertical or otherwise.
The 139 flight director does not become effective until 60 kts, but the autopilot is always available if you know how to use it.
Maybe I'm a defective unit or missing something here
Is this a plank based database or a genuine helicopter centric language
IMHO, corporate crew have very little experience of zero vis ops, as in we are used to taking off with 400m or less vis and cloud bases less than 100ft, or more importantly from a platform at night with no vis, vertical or otherwise.
The 139 flight director does not become effective until 60 kts, but the autopilot is always available if you know how to use it.
Maybe I'm a defective unit or missing something here
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Griffo me young Lad, you are anything but an old Fart just yet.
You fully grasp the concepts.
Fixed Wing "Rules" applied to Helicopters always provides for an awkward situation.
You fully grasp the concepts.
Fixed Wing "Rules" applied to Helicopters always provides for an awkward situation.
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After a brief skim of the last few days of posts, I still don't think anyone has answered the question of how can UK night rig departures, away from light sources (and therefore visual reference) comply with the (presumable) intent of the "rules", ie no IMC flight below 50kts VMini, or whatever. Yes, we've had talk about it's not the same as onshore because the platform height means there's less risk, but that's not the point - which is, as far as I'm concerned, do the regulators think a helo can be safely controlled under VMini on instruments? Because that's what surely must be happening. Talk of the difference in meaning of IFR and IMC to me is just semantics - the real safety issue is as above.
So, anyone care to answer? G550 and RWB - you two appear to have some of the best knowledge of the regulations.
So, anyone care to answer? G550 and RWB - you two appear to have some of the best knowledge of the regulations.
Last edited by rotorspeed; 19th Apr 2014 at 21:43.
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@Griffo...
Got it in one...!
I've sat in the back of the 139 Sim and watched, sometimes in amusement and sometimes in bewilderment, while people struggle to make that transition into IMC.
All the problems begin with a failure to let go the Force Trim Release buttons. Set the power and the attitude and just let go - once established in an accelerative attitude and with climb power set, it will keep on accelerating and cllimbing until the pilot next intervenes. Moreover, it will do so from a whole lot less than either the FD Min Use speed of 60kts or Vmini. (That, of course, leads us back to the night or low vis rig departures...)
As an aside, I recently had some long conversations with a pilot who used to work for that operation on the S76. I was left with the distinct impression that, while it sometimes required considerable fortitude to face him down, the man was not the ogre he is being made out to be.
....but the autopilot is always available if you know how to use it.
I've sat in the back of the 139 Sim and watched, sometimes in amusement and sometimes in bewilderment, while people struggle to make that transition into IMC.
All the problems begin with a failure to let go the Force Trim Release buttons. Set the power and the attitude and just let go - once established in an accelerative attitude and with climb power set, it will keep on accelerating and cllimbing until the pilot next intervenes. Moreover, it will do so from a whole lot less than either the FD Min Use speed of 60kts or Vmini. (That, of course, leads us back to the night or low vis rig departures...)
As an aside, I recently had some long conversations with a pilot who used to work for that operation on the S76. I was left with the distinct impression that, while it sometimes required considerable fortitude to face him down, the man was not the ogre he is being made out to be.
As an aside, I recently had some long conversations with a pilot who used to work for that operation on the S76. I was left with the distinct impression that, while it sometimes required considerable fortitude to face him down, the man was not the ogre he is being made out to be.
tistisnot - Hmmmmm... who is it that does the majority of UK SAR work both over land (well below 3000') and over the sea??????? Oh yes, that will be the RAF then - 6 SAR flights compared to 4 for Bristow and 2 for RN
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6 SAR Flights? Golly gee, how does one maintain flight separation with all those thundering fleets of aged Sea Kings filling the sky? (Images of flying Monkeys in the Wizard of Oz).
Now on an average day out of Aberdeen....with the odd occasional departure offshore never a problem or conflict. Just hop in, pull pitch, and off you go.
Now on an average day out of Aberdeen....with the odd occasional departure offshore never a problem or conflict. Just hop in, pull pitch, and off you go.
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After a brief skim of the last few days of posts, I still don't think anyone has answered the question of how can UK night rig departures, away from light sources (and therefore visual reference) comply with the (presumable) intent of the "rules", ie no IMC flight below 50kts VMini, or whatever. Yes, we've had talk about it's not the same as onshore because the platform height means there's less risk, but that's not the point - which is, as far as I'm concerned, do the regulators think a helo can be safely controlled under VMini on instruments? Because that's what surely must be happening. Talk of the difference in meaning of IFR and IMC to me is just semantics - the real safety issue is as above.
He seemed to have no issue with it, and certainly didn't question why we were doing it.
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I would suggest that doing a normal departure offshore at night with a TDP of 20ft when you might be 90ft above the sea surface is a different proposition to an onshore helipad departure with a TDP of 35ft when you are at ground level and surrounded by obstructions and in fog, and becoming IMC during the vertical climb.
there is clearly a greater margin to correct mistakes offshore.
I have done both profiles many times, but do not fly in weather that makes me IMC doing the onshore profile until the appropriate time.
there is clearly a greater margin to correct mistakes offshore.
I have done both profiles many times, but do not fly in weather that makes me IMC doing the onshore profile until the appropriate time.
6 SAR Flights? Golly gee, how does one maintain flight separation with all those thundering fleets of aged Sea Kings filling the sky? (Images of flying Monkeys in the Wizard of Oz).
Now on an average day out of Aberdeen....with the odd occasional departure offshore never a problem or conflict. Just hop in, pull pitch, and off you go.
Now on an average day out of Aberdeen....with the odd occasional departure offshore never a problem or conflict. Just hop in, pull pitch, and off you go.
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Mightygem,
Let's just look at Crabs last statement. It was thought out and calculated......designed to provoke a response...as was his use of the smiley.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
Well he got a response, a reactionary and emotional one at that, and he blooming well deserved it.
Let's just look at Crabs last statement. It was thought out and calculated......designed to provoke a response...as was his use of the smiley.
He knew exactly what he was doing.
Well he got a response, a reactionary and emotional one at that, and he blooming well deserved it.
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So why not just program the aircraft to do what you want, hit "Go", sit back and enjoy a cup of Tea while the aircraft flies you to your destination and lands for you?
Optionally piloted Black Hawk demonstrator helicopter takes successful first flight | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
Optionally piloted Black Hawk demonstrator helicopter takes successful first flight | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry