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AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk

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AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk

Old 22nd Mar 2017, 20:44
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Is there a guarantee for such for any takeoff if one includes all contingencies?

Aviation is based upon accepting reasonable risks is it not?

Consider the 225 situation extant!
Thanks for your kind reminder! "Guarantees" was not an optimum word. Point taken And of course there are risks involved, even if you
are flying Cat A profiles... On the other hand the RFM describes e.g. how to use RHT/HOV and TU-modes...
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 21:01
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Search&Rescue,
How do you do it?
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 21:20
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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Search&Rescue,
How do you do it?
You are talking/asking about takeoff techniques? Describe takeoff/landing site and WX conditions. Even if I am flying SAR, we do have WX restrictions...
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 21:32
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Horizontal departure - from hover engage TU and once past min if speed (50/60kts) engage ALTA.
Vertical departure - from auto hover (30ft) increase collective height bug to suitable height (500ft for example). At safe height to clear obstacles increase hover position forward to 60 kts then follow ALTA as above.

The basic 139 has autohover and therefore a vertical departure can be followed as above which I guess was an option for LABL. Practice using auto modes is essential if you intend to fly in such conditions.
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 21:48
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If you refer to a similar concept of " safely" continuing the "0/0" type take off as commonly used in other prescribed and approved techniques.....it would be determined more by performance capability considering a failed engine at any point in the take off and the height of obstacles in the take off path.

Such take offs are very rare...excepting night offshore and article or desert operations.

The technique I learned was to ascend "vertically" using a "hover" attitude....until clear of known obstacles the adjust the pitch attitude to achieve Vbroc until 500feet AGL then use the desired airspeed/ROC/power setting desired.

Mind you we were doing these in UH-1's, H-19's, H-34's....single engine helicopters....two of which had Manual throttles.

So continued flight post Engine Failure was easy decision!

Consider in this accident....the visibility (lack of....) prevented a safe takeoff using any approved takeoff profile. The right profile was no take off under the circumstances.

Perhaps the U.K. Rules need examining!
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 22:00
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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Horizontal departure - from hover engage TU and once past min if speed (50/60kts) engage ALTA.
Vertical departure - from auto hover (30ft) increase collective height bug to suitable height (500ft for example). At safe height to clear obstacles increase hover position forward to 60 kts then follow ALTA as above.

The basic 139 has autohover and therefore a vertical departure can be followed as above which I guess was an option for LABL. Practice using auto modes is essential if you intend to fly in such conditions.
Thanks Jeepys! Good advice! 👍

We have a quite flat country, so it will be the horizontal dep most of the times. Maybe I would start with "Confined profile" in order to reject easily if needed and @TDPe select TU. The Vertical dep might be a good option sometimes (e.g. due to poor references), but I guess that you have to plan some kind "commitment point" anyway in case of OEI before 500 ft or what would you do in case of OEI at 350 ft? Just "Standard Flyaway" and Vtoss climb until clear of obstacles or?
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 22:33
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In auto hover mode, will the 139 hands free maintain its position solidly over the ground and not drift without any corrective input?
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 23:00
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Originally Posted by Sir Korsky View Post
In auto hover mode, will the 139 hands free maintain its position solidly over the ground and not drift without any corrective input?
The HOV mode is pretty accurate. We use the HOV mode e.g. during 30-320 ft hover when checking the hoistcables (primary/secondary) with max 270kg weight and the helo will hold the position usually 1-2m.
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 23:02
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Depends how strong and sudden the gusts of wind are. But generally speaking - yep!
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 00:04
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Is the HOV mode input accelerometer/FOG or GPS/FMS based or combination of sources? Sorry for the ' works great and lasts a long time ' question.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 00:06
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Yes the auto hover in the 139 is very good. GPS held and often well within the 1-2m.

S&R,
If you are working to a high TDPe of say 300ft in poor weather and vis then I think first you have to ask the question 'do we really need to do this'? If the answer is yes as it can be in the SAR theatre then you have two options if you have an engine failure prior to TDP when doing a vertical procedure. You either keep the helicopter coupled in hov and fly the collective in the descent back to the pad or continue with the OEI profile post TDP.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 14:57
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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
Yes the auto hover in the 139 is very good. GPS held and often well within the 1-2m.

S&R,
If you are working to a high TDPe of say 300ft in poor weather and vis then I think first you have to ask the question 'do we really need to do this'? If the answer is yes as it can be in the SAR theatre then you have two options if you have an engine failure prior to TDP when doing a vertical procedure. You either keep the helicopter coupled in hov and fly the collective in the descent back to the pad or continue with the OEI profile post TDP.
That makes sense! Never tried, but I will x-check the procedure in Sim next time... Thanks again! 👍
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 19:01
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Which sim? What phase does it refelct?


Which 139: which phase does it have. What options were included/switched on/off?


The upper mode buttons may be there (or not), but whether the aircraft you are in will do the things promised here is another matter.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 19:28
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The crew of G-LBAL didn't make use of a sophisticed AFCS apparently (or MCC or CRM for that matter). Perhaps because the aircraft they were flying didn't have these options or because the working environment wasn't conducive to training and development.

Think the thread reached broad conclusion that their work environment was risky and that to fly was the wrong decision a while ago. Rehashing how they might have done it better is surely not the right way to go.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:39
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I disagree Torque. I have gleaned much critical knowledge from this website over the past 15 years or so. If any discussion here provides any kind of community wide education which may help to prevent another accident, then I'm all for it. I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge that surfaces here. There are many different ways of operating, and I'd like to review as many as possible to select for my armory. I will admit though that threads can become a little incestuous from the same band of posters. I'd like to see the PPRuNe of old return, where more folks are encouraged to post without the fear of being shot down by the regulars. Back to the 'new church on the block' instead of the old boys club that PPRuNe seems to have morphed in to.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:17
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Originally Posted by Sir Korsky View Post
I disagree Torque. I have gleaned much critical knowledge from this website over the past 15 years or so. If any discussion here provides any kind of community wide education which may help to prevent another accident, then I'm all for it. I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge that surfaces here. There are many different ways of operating, and I'd like to review as many as possible to select for my armory. I will admit though that threads can become a little incestuous from the same band of posters. I'd like to see the PPRuNe of old return, where more folks are encouraged to post without the fear of being shot down by the regulars. Back to the 'new church on the block' instead of the old boys club that PPRuNe seems to have morphed in to.
Sir Korsky

Thanks for your engouragement! 👍

Last edited by Search&Rescue; 24th Mar 2017 at 14:02.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 02:27
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The AW139 Hover Mode does NOT hold a GPS or FMS position. It is a velocity reference. If you have selected "0 velocity" and you drift (such as due to cross wind) it does not return you to the original position.

These discussions providing only partially correct information is what gets people in trouble when they "think" they know the system.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 03:30
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Very true HLCPTR, but it's certainly up to the individual to pick the flowers in the minefield.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 07:07
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Originally Posted by HLCPTR View Post
The AW139 Hover Mode does NOT hold a GPS or FMS position. It is a velocity reference. If you have selected "0 velocity" and you drift (such as due to cross wind) it does not return you to the original position.

These discussions providing only partially correct information is what gets people in trouble when they "think" they know the system.
HLCPTR

Very good point! 👍 Direct from RFM/Suppl 69: "The HOV mode utilizes the AHRS ground velocities to maintain hover or low speed flying".
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 09:28
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue View Post
HLCPTR

Very good point! 👍 Direct from RFM/Suppl 69: "The HOV mode utilizes the AHRS ground velocities to maintain hover or low speed flying".
All correct, but it is VERY good at maintaining a position, even in a crosswind.

Not to condone or criticize the actions of this crew since I have no knowledge of what pressures they were faced with, but if they would have used the full capabilities of the automation of the 139 a departure in near 0/0 could have been successfully accomplished.
Again, not suggesting that anyone should ever attempt this except maybe in a life and death situation.
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