AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
OK so....
That's a big statement.
There can only be a problem IF (and it's a really BIG IF) the white shirt and gold bars are just a fancy dress costume because the individual is no 'Captain' and should not be in that seat.
I was talking last night with a cop who lives in my village and attended the scene.He says the freshly severed tip of the conifer is very close to the take off point,within the grounds of the hall and not on the western side of the A143 where the aircraft impacted.
skadi
No doubt examination of the blades will reveal if the helo hit the tree and, if so, whether the aircraft was controllable after that point or not. Add in darkness and mist/fog and you have a scenario that none of us would wish to find ourselves in. RIP
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If they did hit a tree causing total loss of control would it have impacted nose down as it appears to have from seeing the wreckage. In my own mind i would have thought it would be spinning or just fall like a stone shortly after the blade touched something. It travelled a reasonable distance from the possible initial collision.
As i said earlier I am no expert but could it have been trying to achieve forward flight with nose down as thats where majority of the damage seems to be? It could have struck a tree as a result of something mechanical going wrong rather than visibility being the initial factor. Part of me thinks the pilots would have been in and out of Gillingham fairly often and even in low visibility would have been well aware of all the nearby hazards and have a safe height they knew they needed to reach to avoid any obstructions.
As i said earlier I am no expert but could it have been trying to achieve forward flight with nose down as thats where majority of the damage seems to be? It could have struck a tree as a result of something mechanical going wrong rather than visibility being the initial factor. Part of me thinks the pilots would have been in and out of Gillingham fairly often and even in low visibility would have been well aware of all the nearby hazards and have a safe height they knew they needed to reach to avoid any obstructions.
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AW 139
Being as the AW 139 has a VMINI of 50 KIAS, and an IFR, CAT "A" vertical takeoff not being possible due to low cloud layer or obscuration, fog, mist, etc..maybe they were attempting to build the airspeed in a CAT B takeoff profile and contacted something? Also, the blades may be damaged beyond a point of determining when they made contact with something other than air.
Much will depend on the nature of the strike.It's theoretically possible for the main rotor blades to impact something solid like a tree and survive.This would depend on the thickness of the tree and how much overlap occurred.In a best case scenario with say,the end 50cm striking high up on a thin branch it's quite likely that damage would not be critical.At the opposite end of the scale a strike half way along the blade against a thick branch then I think a catastrophic failure and immediate crash would ensue.
Somewhere between the most likely outcome would be critical damage but not enough to prevent some degree of control being retained.The impact would almost certainly knock out bearings in the gearbox and cause malalignement of the rotors and potential loss of control.If this has happened they were probably unlucky because a slightly smaller impact would have permitted sufficient control to be retained to allow an emergency landing.
Somewhere between the most likely outcome would be critical damage but not enough to prevent some degree of control being retained.The impact would almost certainly knock out bearings in the gearbox and cause malalignement of the rotors and potential loss of control.If this has happened they were probably unlucky because a slightly smaller impact would have permitted sufficient control to be retained to allow an emergency landing.
#250 : Cat "A"? Cat "B"?
Reject distances, surface type, perhaps a hillside, continued take-off flight path? Private helicopter owners do not usually have a nice paved well lit level airfield just outside their doorsteps otherwise they would not be paying for an expensive helicopter, the best the pilot can do is use his experience of the particular helicopter's performance given the AUW and be it a single or twin choose the safest approach and takeoff given the wind, obstructions, fences, etc.; plan for the worst and hope for the best. (Apology tistisnot #256: I should have said to minimise the problem in the event of an engine failure during the landing or takeoff phases. Like BA I would hope that we also do not want accidents but there is a difference between acceptable risks and enforced/dangerous risks when pilots are pressured for whatever reason).
As a BA pilot once remarked to me as we flew to pick up a VIP "we have made more decisions flying for half an hour in this helicopter than the captain of a 777 makes in flying from the UK to the west coast of America". Time for helicopter pilots to have the equivalent of BALPA?
Reject distances, surface type, perhaps a hillside, continued take-off flight path? Private helicopter owners do not usually have a nice paved well lit level airfield just outside their doorsteps otherwise they would not be paying for an expensive helicopter, the best the pilot can do is use his experience of the particular helicopter's performance given the AUW and be it a single or twin choose the safest approach and takeoff given the wind, obstructions, fences, etc.; plan for the worst and hope for the best. (Apology tistisnot #256: I should have said to minimise the problem in the event of an engine failure during the landing or takeoff phases. Like BA I would hope that we also do not want accidents but there is a difference between acceptable risks and enforced/dangerous risks when pilots are pressured for whatever reason).
As a BA pilot once remarked to me as we flew to pick up a VIP "we have made more decisions flying for half an hour in this helicopter than the captain of a 777 makes in flying from the UK to the west coast of America". Time for helicopter pilots to have the equivalent of BALPA?
Last edited by 76fan; 18th Mar 2014 at 20:03. Reason: Apology in brackets
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The problem with BALPA and other unions in the UK is that you need a minimum number of employees in a company to qualify for recognised status. I can't think of any outside of the offshore operators and Bond that have enough these days. The smaller operators and owners have no obligation in law to recognise union membership.
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A blade strike is not a blade problem, It becomes a flight control problem/ Drive train problem, The impact forces feed back & damage other pieces that bend or seperate. Conrtol lost down the line. Not good.
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76fan
BA does not want accidents - it learns that following standard procedures it can help greatly to avoid these accidents - so it's easy with fixed runways to enforce monitoring of its drivers applying said procedures.
The helicopter with its freedom and flexibility is why I suspect many of us want to stay flying them ..... but the dichotomy would seem that we are in danger of being confined to fixed runways / heliports unless we can find better ways of sticking to some basic procedures to keep the passengers safe?
""plan for the worst and hope for the best. (Eeeeek!)
As a BA pilot once remarked to me as we flew to pick up a VIP "we have made more decisions flying for half an hour in this helicopter than the captain of a 777 makes in flying from the UK to the west coast of America". ""
As a BA pilot once remarked to me as we flew to pick up a VIP "we have made more decisions flying for half an hour in this helicopter than the captain of a 777 makes in flying from the UK to the west coast of America". ""
The helicopter with its freedom and flexibility is why I suspect many of us want to stay flying them ..... but the dichotomy would seem that we are in danger of being confined to fixed runways / heliports unless we can find better ways of sticking to some basic procedures to keep the passengers safe?
With this post, I stress that I'm not making any any specific assumptions regarding this particular accident.
However, I've got a question regarding taking off in fog in civilian circles. In the UK military, the IF take-off is still taught to, and practiced regularly, by all helicopter pilots. It is regarded as an essential operational skill.
Is the IF take-off taught in civilian IR training? Is so, are there any currency requirements? If not, how does a pilot learn and retain those skills?
JJ
However, I've got a question regarding taking off in fog in civilian circles. In the UK military, the IF take-off is still taught to, and practiced regularly, by all helicopter pilots. It is regarded as an essential operational skill.
Is the IF take-off taught in civilian IR training? Is so, are there any currency requirements? If not, how does a pilot learn and retain those skills?
JJ
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The observations made here are very valid, tragic as this accident was, how fortunate that no member of the public was involved.The owner of this aircraft was well known for resorting to litigation-as has been stated vis-a -vis Agusta Westland, in fact I believe both his wife and daughter have/are practicing law it is difficult for an individual employee to take on this amount of pressure and wealth.
The Authority may wish to consider the suitability of operating from Ad-Hoc sites at night or in poor met conditions without proper approved met facilities at the point of departure.Police a/c operate from both airfields and heliports, but for a long time now it has been a requirement to have approved wx facilities at all these bases, I always found the finger held up to the wind less than satisfactory,at night when there is full cloud cover and the site is in trees,studying the nearest metars and tafs indicate the wx but still do not accurately indicate local conditions, whilst driving to a properly regulated site may be slightly inconvenient to the very few, it would provide a much needed additional safety to the public.
,
The Authority may wish to consider the suitability of operating from Ad-Hoc sites at night or in poor met conditions without proper approved met facilities at the point of departure.Police a/c operate from both airfields and heliports, but for a long time now it has been a requirement to have approved wx facilities at all these bases, I always found the finger held up to the wind less than satisfactory,at night when there is full cloud cover and the site is in trees,studying the nearest metars and tafs indicate the wx but still do not accurately indicate local conditions, whilst driving to a properly regulated site may be slightly inconvenient to the very few, it would provide a much needed additional safety to the public.
,
Jelly,
Describe the Military Instrument Take Off procedure that is being taught so those of us who are not familiar with the technique(s) used can compare them to the civilian procedures being used.
Describe the Military Instrument Take Off procedure that is being taught so those of us who are not familiar with the technique(s) used can compare them to the civilian procedures being used.
SAS
The current procedure for 'zero vis' (for want of a better term), is from an IGE hover note Torque, heading and attitude (usually about 5degs nose up and 3degs Right skid low in the AS350 I fly).
Take off is initiated by applying 10% more torque, retain attitude and heading until Rate of Climb indicated on VSI/Altimeter then select 10 degs nose down (from hover attitude). Retain right skid low until 40kts then select wings level whilst continuing accel, in balance (in trim in US), to climb speed and topping up torque. Establish on normal climb parameters.
If cloudbase permits, a VFR transition to climb speed followed by reverting to instruments in the climb is the preferred option however.
JJ
The current procedure for 'zero vis' (for want of a better term), is from an IGE hover note Torque, heading and attitude (usually about 5degs nose up and 3degs Right skid low in the AS350 I fly).
Take off is initiated by applying 10% more torque, retain attitude and heading until Rate of Climb indicated on VSI/Altimeter then select 10 degs nose down (from hover attitude). Retain right skid low until 40kts then select wings level whilst continuing accel, in balance (in trim in US), to climb speed and topping up torque. Establish on normal climb parameters.
If cloudbase permits, a VFR transition to climb speed followed by reverting to instruments in the climb is the preferred option however.
JJ
not allowed here in uk if what youre saying is a vertical climb in fog or bad vis, to clear obstacles, and then transition to forward flight. Well not that I was ever taught it. Nor would I ever consider using that technique in a civilian role.
The US Army did much the same except we did all takeoffs from the ground after doing the Hover Check. We flew the entire procedure on Instruments....whence our take off from the ground....no need to transition from looking out side to looking back in during a critical phase of the maneuver.
We held Hover Attitude while adding Take Off Power to 100 feet AGL or well clear of Obstacles....then lower the nose by 5-7 Degrees and accelerate to Normal Climb Speed (60-80 KTS).
Take Off was into wind or as close as possible over the lowest obstacles.
It worked for every type of helicopter I ever flew.
No turns below 300 feet....and normal IF calls and procedures.
We held Hover Attitude while adding Take Off Power to 100 feet AGL or well clear of Obstacles....then lower the nose by 5-7 Degrees and accelerate to Normal Climb Speed (60-80 KTS).
Take Off was into wind or as close as possible over the lowest obstacles.
It worked for every type of helicopter I ever flew.
No turns below 300 feet....and normal IF calls and procedures.
SAS - why would you land again after doing a hover check to then complete an instrument takeoff from the ground? If you are steady in the hover attitude it is much easier to carry out the IF transition from there - starting from the ground just seems rather pointless unless you are in a dust cloud (in which case you wouldn't do the hover check).