Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 18th Feb 2014, 12:14
  #2241 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,693
Received 37 Likes on 23 Posts
1helicopterppl;

Tr, on the Kegworth 737 I recall the CC did exactly that & the pilots shut down the wrong engine !
Tr;
Nice one.

That accident occurred in Jan 1989.

Now here's a quick question for you: since then, how many police aircraft have been lost in air accidents in the UK?

Here's the answer, and it makes pretty ugly reading considering the relatively small number of hours flown:

EIGHT !

Now some of you would sound far more convincing suggesting everything in the garden is rosy, and you can't learn anything about flying, if only the figures supported your arguments.

There are one or two intelligent contributors on here. Just spend a little time thinking about those figures before replying.
Didn't the Super Puma on 23 Aug 2013 have 2 pilots?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...2%20G-WNSB.pdf

"Summary
To date, the wreckage examination and analysis of the recorded data have not found any evidence of a technical fault that could have been causal to the accident, although some work remains to be completed. The ongoing AAIB investigation will focus on the operational aspects of the flight; specifically on the effectiveness of pilot monitoring of instruments during the approach, operational procedures and the training of flight crews.
"



Tr, what was it you said earlier;
Come on guys.
Only one of these three 'very experienced people' (were they?) was a pilot! TFOs can be keen and knowledgeable, but they aren't professional pilots. They don't HAVE to be keen and/or knowledgeable on aviation. (Do they pass tech exams on the EC135???) They just have to fulfil THEIR role!

If you want to make a case for 'many eyes', then you need a second pilot. I'm afraid it's that simple! Don't you dare try to fudge the issue.
I can understand a bit of TL : DR, but your own posts
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 12:15
  #2242 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,693
Received 37 Likes on 23 Posts
p.s.
The 2 pilot issue has its own thread!
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 12:18
  #2243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: U.K.
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As Reely stated, the Low Rotor warning is triggered at 97% could the intermittent warnings be due to collective inputs during OEI conditions?

Just thinking out loud again!

FS
FlightSpanner is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 12:18
  #2244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Age: 81
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by catch21
sloshing over the fence
Awwww - I'll never understand this fuel system

Does anyone have a complete engineering threeview drawing?
henry_crun is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 13:08
  #2245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,131
Received 318 Likes on 204 Posts
Originally Posted by G0ULI
So redesign the fuel system and develop a system to automatically shed electrical load when or if both generators drop off line.
Not in concurrence.
Don't run out of gas.
No redisign of electrical system needed. Discussion on how to reduce unusable fuel amount will be left to those who wish to pursue it.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 13:18
  #2246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,267
Received 467 Likes on 191 Posts
Lone,

You do realize there were not many places for the Crew to get Fuel that night....and that is part of the problem!

Can some of you Police Pilots that operate in the Glasgow area give us a run down of fuel sites available at night?

Has the Police arranged for After Hours Fuel at any place except for their home heliport?
SASless is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 13:20
  #2247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,680
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
SASless: are you not listening?? Police operators don't use ad hoc refuelling depots??? There is NO need...see previous posts on this will you?

Again - for the uninitiated: Police crews (pilots AND police officers) DO NOT fly below MLA's (day or night). They PLAN to recover to base before then. It is a flt safety occurrence if they ever did (MOR). Police pax would see to that (TFO's).
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 13:26
  #2248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,680
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Talking to a colleague of mine today. He knew Dave from old during their time together in Chinooks. Dave was a very highly thought of QHI. Like Dave, my colleague never practiced EOL's. They only ever practice auto's to a 100' overshoot. Dave then flew for the police on the Ec135: never practiced EOL's, only auto to the overshoot.
When was the last time a 'seasoned' aviator ever experience decaying Nr from a real EOL compared to the prepared and planned: "Auto"?
Add to this flying over hostile territory / night / captions / commotion in the cockpit from crews..........
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 14:14
  #2249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,131
Received 318 Likes on 204 Posts
SASless: my response to G0uli had to do with one of FortyOdd's posts. I find the "redesign" instinct to require a grain of salt on the basis of one accident ... though sometimes that is not a bad thing to consider.
A few thoughts on the latest since the AAIB issued the recent info ...
tigerfish:
Suddenly the rules have changed, and as a result the missions must be getting longer, making fuel management issues much more of a factor than before.
Indeed. Probably already an SOP ... per this post by FortyOdd
Originally Posted by Forty Odd
As a police pilot you are continually assessing how long you've got left on task.
Similar to those who fly over open water a lot.
Originally Posted by FortyOdd
The fuel display is essentially an airborne planning tool. However, should the warnings appear, expected or not, the clock becomes the primary planning tool.
Well said:
To quote an old and bald QHI from my military days, "Airspeed is life, altitude is life insurance and you cannot buy either of them without fuel".
Aye.
Regarding the XFER pumps versus Prime Pumps:
If there were ANY reason to redesign something, one could look at that cluster of four switches. If the two Primes were flat switches, and the two XFER pumps were round switches (the diagram looks like they are all round) you'd know by feel which sort of switch you had your hand on.
(Or you could teach yourself which is outside and which is inside, and do a finger count to confirm ... lots of different ideas on that sort of thing).
Art: (By the way, thanks for your many insightful posts)
The fact we know is that the transfer pumps and prime pumps were in the wrong positions, thus denying the only actual fuel present reaching the engines. What we hope to know is wether the displays and warnings were being accurately presented to the pilot.
Knobology. It's caught a few people.
Shy:
If you can come up with an autopilot that works without hydraulics you might make your fortune.
One could start by using a Kaman servo flap system. :-) (I actually agree with your response to AnFI, and will not further digress).
paull
How often do people flip the wrong switches?
Speaking for own self ... have done it before in more than one aircraft model. Managed to note or recover, or have a C/P bring to my attention "wrong switch, bubba ... "
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 14:43
  #2250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: LOWW
Posts: 345
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Awwww - I'll never understand this fuel system
Does anyone have a complete engineering threeview drawing?
Not me, but given http://www.airbushelicopters.com/sit...uel_system.pdf Page 2
I'd guess from my hip as follows:
  1. both main fuel tank pumps must have some kind of valve that prevents flow back through the pump. If the front one "runs dry" and the rear one still pumps fuel the long red line in the diagram will be filled with fuel from the rear pump but it will not circle back into the main tank through the not operating front pump.
  2. both rear tanks a fed fuel via the single hose conneting both main tanks' pump(s), until both rear tanks are full. Should the XFR pumps still be running, they'd work against the full rear tanks, nicely lubed by Jet-A1 (which is more or less diesel _OIL_)
  3. front and rear tanks seem to be separate containers as are the rear tanks. Fuel that ends up in one of the rear tanks stays there and will not "slosh back"
  4. from there the engine's internal pump will suck the fuel from its rear tank upwards, w/o the prime pump's help.
Actually a nice setup, highly redundand: with any one of the XFR pumps unservicable and additionally one of the rear tanks leaking heavily you can still fly (OEI) w/o necessity to have any working prime pump (rear tank to engine), as long as the internal fuel pump of the engine still works.

Personally I do like the SASless mode of operation: have both XFER pumps constanly on, till main tank is empty (and pump warning light come on), then switch them off and land on suitable spot. No constant pump switching necessary.
All under the assumption the SASless mode is compatible with the AFM and OPM.
Reely340 is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 14:54
  #2251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re practicing EOLs in Chinooks. Surely they must have done many in the sim? Even so, it wouldn't have much relevance to this event as the landing technique for an eol in a Chinook bears no resemblance to the same thing in a conventional helo.
Wageslave is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 14:55
  #2252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Warks
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
position not quantity

"don't run out of gas"

"give us a rundown of fuel sites"

This is not a fuel problem! Let's get back on track. There could have been 90, 100 or even 150kg in the main tank. Still the same problem.

It was simply in the wrong place.The pilot either thought there was fuel in the supply tank when there wasn't or knew that there wasn't but couldn't do anything about it.
skyrangerpro is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 15:00
  #2253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by skyrangerpro
This is not a fuel problem! Let's get back on track. There could have been 90, 100 or even 150kg in the main tank. Still the same problem.
correct me if I am wrong, but if there had been 150Kg's of fuel in the main tank, the supply tanks would have been full too (as 150Kg's must be well above the fuel fence?)

I know it's not a fixed number, but can a 135 person comment on what typically is the figure at which fuel dose not flow over the fence?
Scuffers is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 15:16
  #2254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,680
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Skyrangerpro: exactly!

Reely340: SASless has absolutely no idea about the "mode of operation" of UK police ops??? One doesn't simply fly till it's time to land due to fuel and then find somewhere suitable to plonk a £6 million helicopter.
Current police pilots are telling you what they do and ALL of them go home at the end of their sorties to designated police landing sites - simples
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 15:26
  #2255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: LOWW
Posts: 345
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Current police pilots are telling you what they do and ALL of them go home at the end of their sorties to designated police landing sites - simples
Understood, but in this case the "ground crew" ordering him around in real time, preventing any solid flight planning before takeoff, should be required to consider his fuel reserves, before ordering him the go to traget #47 of this flight, not?

I'm definitely missing something here, that is not a radio taxi operator, asking "who is airborne and closest to XYZ?"...

Or would they simply say "please go to XYZ to check on alleged tresspassing" whereupon he has to say - after some in cockpit calculations(!) - "naah, that would cut into my OPM mandated reserve"

The AAIB report states he had 400kg in the beginning at 20:45.
That'll last ~ 95mins (=22:20). So how can he be ordered/tasked/expected to be airbore at 22:22 and follow OPM's min fuel reserve regs.?
If the fuel were in the correct tanks and he had landed, woudl that have been within company OPM fuel limits?

While reading that thread I've always felt that someone on the administration side has asked too much from an a/c with 95min endurance

Who calls an end to an police helicopter sortie?

Last edited by Reely340; 18th Feb 2014 at 15:43.
Reely340 is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 15:32
  #2256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes on 6 Posts
Over 2300 posts, skyrangepro that's a very very good concise summary
jayteeto is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 15:49
  #2257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,131
Received 318 Likes on 204 Posts
Art:
NPAS is flying further and longer with less aircraft.
Fuel or lack of it particularly at night (airfields shut and MLA is higher) is at the forefront of pilots minds.
In Essex we often would be tasked until we really had to land on minimums.
Operational environments like the above are where we often looked (outside the cockpit) when investigating accidents back when I was in the Navy.
Depending upon how extensive such an operational pattern is, and what lengths crews are being pushed, this habit pattern may support the argument that "supervisory error" contributed this accident. (Not sure what the Brit term is for "supervisory error" in the formal sense, in terms of a policy or environment that sets crews/pilots up).

Was this an accident waiting to happen? Maybe, maybe not.

It would be interesting to find out if the AAIB is able to sort out the number of NPAS missions (from all providers, not just the company supporting this particular area) that habitualy get to or slip over the SOP limits. From one of the previous posts, it appears that any mission that lands below the SOP minimum fuel level must be reported.

I admit to making some inferences here that folks actually flying in NPAS will find "not quite right," and will apologize in advance. A bit of thinking out loud.

EDIT to comment on a comment
skyrange
Originally Posted by you
Originally Posted by me
"don't run out of gas"
This is not a fuel problem!
May be a fuel management problem (which is all about don't run out of gas), or it may be a "knobology" problem which occurred while doing fuel management as things got close to min fuel near the end of a mission.
There could have been 90, 100 or even 150kg in the main tank. Still the same problem. It was simply in the wrong place. The pilot either
thought there was fuel in the supply tank when there wasn't or knew that there wasn't but couldn't do anything about it.
Or, perhaps thought he did something about it, but didn't realize that he'd hit the Prime switch rather than the transfer switch, for reasons possibly not knowable to any of us.

TC made an interesting point about always flying with XFR pumps on when he flew this model. A given operator/company may have rules for not doing that with an eye toward extending the life of its equipment.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 18th Feb 2014 at 16:00.
Lonewolf_50 is online now  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 16:16
  #2258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: South Coast, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On this occasion would both the two police observers have been in the rear cabin section, or would one have been in the cockpit adj. the pilot and one in the rear cabin?
catch21 is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 17:31
  #2259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: the cockpit
Posts: 1,084
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I think finally someone has said it......skyrangerpro


This is not a fuel problem! Let's get back on track. There could have been 90, 100 or even 150kg in the main tank. Still the same problem.

It was simply in the wrong place.The pilot either thought there was fuel in the supply tank when there wasn't or knew that there wasn't but couldn't do anything about it.
There are no new accidents... Old Jungle Saying.

I recall a BK117 double flame out in the USA due to the pilot leaving primes on and transfer pumps off after start. He never quite believed he was in trouble because main tank showed 350kg all the way to the ground - even though the supply tanks went lower and lower until they read 0. I don't know if the 135 is the same, but there are no "fuel fences" or other ways to transfer fuel. He also had warning cautions set to dim from previous nights flight so it was thought he could have missed some lights.

I recall a UK A109 double flame out due to the pilot feeding both engines from only one side due to confusion with the fuel system and doing the auto with 110kg still in the other side. Contributing was the display system for the cross feed.

Both involve fuel system issues coupled with indication issues or complexities....sounds similar to this Glasgow one.... though it is WAY too early to point that finger. The AAIB will uncover the inevitably complex interaction of many factors that put this pilot in that moment in time.

As I said before, I think this one will be about the cognitive space the guy had when he began getting indications that something was not right. And I am convinced that what happened to him will be revealed as something that could have happened to me.

And TC, I will take up your challenge.... The last time a seasoned aviator suffered a non planned double engine flame out and decaying NR at my company was last week in the regular sim training sessions. As they do yearly. A couple of red screens is a marvellous way to create muscle memory and the resulting freeing up of cognitive processing capacity at critical times.... And not just autos. At least IMHO.

I know you will say it is not "real" but I can tell you the way we set them up ensures that they do not understand why it is happening, nor are they in the least bit prepared for it. But as an example of a real one, try the seasoned Peter Cook from Hunter Rescue in NSW. Sudden double engine decouple from main rotor due mechanical issues after last light in a 412 with a successful unaided auto to the ground. He does do sim training if that is relevant here.
helmet fire is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2014, 17:36
  #2260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Catch21, normal operations are with one TFO/observer in the front and one in the back. The one in the front has visibility of the CAD and Warning panel, also hears the audio warnings. The rear seat observer has no direct visibility of the displays in the front and in most aircraft no audio warnings from the aircraft, therefore would rely on the front seat occupants relaying what was going on.

I would have expected a conversation to have taken place during the return towards base between the 3 crew along the lines of...Pilot (insert name) do we have time/fuel to fit in task xxxx over the city? Quite a lot of non urgent tasks are received and stored, then when the aircraft is called out on an urgent task the crew will try to fit in the 'stored tasks' that are near the route/base. It reduces transit time and cost to individual non-urgent tasks. Some non-urgent stored tasks become increasingly urgent if they have a carry out by a certain date/time request. The start of shift briefing would include a briefing from the police TFO to the pilot of what stored tasks really needed to be completed during that shift (many can only be achieved under cover of darkness....equally, stored photographic tasks are done by day.
Art of flight is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.