Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 5th Dec 2013, 22:14
  #661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Walkindude

No problem. Perhaps I have simply seen this many more times than you? Maybe one day you might get to where I am. Or if you are lucky, I hope you will not.

Take care.
Tandemrotor is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2013, 22:22
  #662 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Scotia
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Tandemrotor.

Without wishing to get into a p.......ing contest with you. Amongst other 'experiences', I worked for 2 days on the hill and 5 days in the mortuary at Lockerbie.

I'm already there.

Best wishes.
walkindude is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2013, 22:25
  #663 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Would anyone agree this appears to be tumbling end over end? with no hope of control and impacting vertically.
chopjock is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2013, 22:28
  #664 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,267
Received 467 Likes on 191 Posts
We have danced around one question....how long had the aircraft been in-flight and how much fuel endurance did the aircraft have at time of departure?

As good as the Fuel Bladder system on the 135 are....but considering the damage to the fuselage...One would think there would have been some fuel spilled during the aftermath of the Crash if only from ruptured fuel lines.

The lack of reports of Engine noise by any of the Bar Patrons suggests the Engines were not running. There are several reasons why that might be.

How long had the aircraft been airborne and how much fuel should the aircraft have had onboard at the time of the crash?

How far from the intended point of landing was the aircraft during the Tasking and from the crash site......less than a mile from the landing site was it as I read some where?
SASless is online now  
Old 5th Dec 2013, 23:14
  #665 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
Some more big assumptions there Sasless;
a.The fuel lines ruptured.
b. All the warnings of low fuel were ignored.
c. #2 shutting down before #1 was ignored
d. The engines were shut down with no human interaction

You really must stop this.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2013, 23:20
  #666 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SASLess, it just might have, as they do, been away on the ground for a wee while in between jobs. So, your question of how long it had been in flight is relevant. The AAIB have given a departure time from base but, as yet, no details of where they went or what they did for two hours.

Exceeding two hours in the air is not uncommon, so I think it is unfair to suggest that they ran out of fuel based simply on the duration of the trip.

An earlier post referred to the DP Augusta 109 Power which ran out of useable fuel. That was very unfortunate and the manual was changed afterwards to clarify the ambiguity which led to the flameout. The subsequent forced landing was, IIRC, into a snow covered surface and an unseen dyke broke the aircraft's back. Hardly the Pilot's fault. He had operated in good faith and his planning was, in consideration of what he had been led to believe about fuel levels, appropriate.

I suppose that all this speculation at least keeps some people, well perhaps "amused" is not the best word, but you know what I mean, I'm sure.

Even if it serves no purpose in terms of finding what happened, the internet, and pprune, is primarily for "entertainment" of its users.

What I find distressing is how easily some posters can leap on mistakes made by other posters and then convert that mistake into the basis of an opinion.

The AAIB said:

David Miller, the AAIB’s deputy chief inspector, said: “The helicopter does not have a flight data recorder, however, it does have a significant number of modern electronic systems on board and it may be possible to recover recorded data from those systems. There were no emergency transmissions from the pilot before this accident.”
Not that there was no distress message from the aircraft.
airpolice is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 00:03
  #667 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here
Posts: 961
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Nige321 scale

Google earth sounds good I can agree with that.

Can you please redo the image with the machine 30 degrees nose down?

If needed I can calculate the necessary aspect ratio of the helicopter image. Please let me know on this forum.
jimjim1 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 01:04
  #668 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Midlands
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The relevant dimensions are:

Cos30 = 0.87 (to 2 d.p.), I.e. 87% of length of original.

10 x 10 rotor diameter will therefore ovalise to 10m wide by 8.7m (10cos30) long.
Burnie5204 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 04:41
  #669 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
Let me assume the role of my signature as 'Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer' and look at the possibility of a bird strike in the fenestron.

As we all know when driving, birds occasionally have a suicidal tendency to fly in front of vehicles, not only across country roads but also larger roads and motorways, day and night. Very very rarely do they impact the side of the vehicle, as they either just make it, apply an amazing avoiding manoeuvre, or somehow make it below the vehicle amazingly dodging the wheels. rarely rarely do flying birds get run over, let along fly into an open window.

I would like to use the the analogy of the open rear window and the fenestron, when this possibility of a bird strike on the fenestron is raised.

The front and rear windows of a Land Rover Discovery are 50cm x50cm and the radius of the 135 fenestron shroud is 50cm, with the cap 18cm in radius. (I have both car & cab in front of me now)

The area of one window is 2,500cm squared.
The total area of windows on each side is 5,000cm squared.
The area of the shroud is 7,854cm squared.
The area of the fenestron cap is 1,018cm squared.
The total area of the exposed fenestron blades on each side is 6,836cm squared.
(I shall ignore the drive shaft cover on the port side, with an area of 306cm squared)

The difference in area between the open windows and fenestron blades is 1,836cm squared, a difference in size that is equal to the front, rear and luggage compartment windows of the Discovery.

Of course we need this to be in a single area as opposed to a series of windows along the length of the Discovery. As it happens, the area is equivalent in size to the back door on the Discovery, allowing for the wheel arch shaping.

What believers of the bird in the fenestron theory want us to accept, is that if you are driving down a motorway at 70 mph in the Discovery with a rear door removed, a bird could fly into to the car through the open space left by the door.

Adding in to the equation the linear speed trigonometry involved, the donut shape of the fenestron, the downforce of air holding up a 2.5 tonne helicopter and the forward 45 degree sector being blocked by the vertical & horizontal stabilisers .......

... I'm not saying that the bird flying into the fenestron theory is impossible, just that it's highly improbable.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 07:27
  #670 (permalink)  
Chief Bottle Washer
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: PPRuNe
Posts: 5,098
Received 172 Likes on 101 Posts
It's obviously time for a reminder, since my last contribution was many pages ago.

Rotorheads is a community here, and we know what we're about as helicopter professionals. I include our non commercial brethren in that list.

We are not into conspiracy theories, what-ifs with no basis other than a dream you had last night after too much cheese, nor the rehashing of earlier posts just in order to see your post count increase.

The moderators here will delete all posts that come under that description; just clear the air for those who have a grasp on reality, please.
Senior Pilot is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 07:46
  #671 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Assuming no Mayday/Pan call put out on UHF/VHF, what means would an emergency call have been put out by the rear crew?

Last edited by Winch-control; 6th Dec 2013 at 08:12.
Winch-control is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 08:12
  #672 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
I don't know what the cause was, but I know what it wasn't!

I stand by my post 643 of Dec 5th @ 12:02.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 08:22
  #673 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
Winch control, I assume you know that the helicopter had police radios in addition to the normal ac VHF radios. I'm not sure if the ac involved had UHF or HF due to its operating area or not, anyone .... ?

I think we can understand why no call was made from either the front or back!
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 08:28
  #674 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maybe the a/c ended up 30 deg nose down on initial impact, maybe it didn't
Maybe an emergency call was put out by some means, maybe it wasn't.
Maybe there was no fuel onboard, maybe there was.
Maybe all the blades were intact, maybe they were not.
Maybe the roof collapsed on impact, maybe it did not.
Maybe there was a catastrophic failure of a component, maybe there was not.
Maybe an environmental aspect affected the a/c, maybe it didn't.
Maybe the a/c flew into the ground due to pilot error, maybe not.

The list goes on…..
Winch-control is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 08:45
  #675 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
Winch control
Maybe the a/c ended up 30 deg nose down on initial impact, maybe it didn't
Maybe an emergency call was put out by some means, maybe it wasn't.
Maybe there was no fuel onboard, maybe there was.
Maybe all the blades were intact, maybe they were not.
Maybe the roof collapsed on impact, maybe it did not.
Maybe there was a catastrophic failure of a component, maybe there was not.
Maybe an environmental aspect affected the a/c, maybe it didn't.
Maybe the a/c flew into the ground due to pilot error, maybe not.

The list goes on…..

Ok, I'll put a fiver on each of the following;
Neither of the TFO's putting out a call (it's already been said that the pilot didn't)
It was fuel being drained immediately after the extraction (as seen on tv)
The blades were intact. (although the front 2 were a bit worse for wear)
The roof collapsing was because of the impact. (I don't think it was the band)
There was a catastrophic failure of a component
There wasn't an environmental factor
There wasn't a pilot error issue

Will you match me by saying the opposite?
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 08:56
  #676 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I cannot disagree with any of that, except maybe the rear crew put out a call by some means. Oh and maybe a total failure of one component...
Sorry to be able to agree! I hope my disagreement agrees with you!

Last edited by Winch-control; 6th Dec 2013 at 09:12.
Winch-control is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 09:11
  #677 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
I'll have to disagree with your disagreement, yet agree with your agreement over the other points that we agree on.

As it is just on the one point, I'll expand slightly.
I think at the point of incident origin, bearing in mind they were (imo) returning to base after the task, the pre landing checks and actions were being carried out and they would be securing everything for landing. The last thing being thought of was a radio call .... and then something happened, and it happened very very fast.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 09:21
  #678 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
chopjock, No that is not a helicopter "tumbling end over end", it is one which is merely rotating in the horizontal plane about its own axis, the M/R Mast.

Hey Sid 'ol mate don't get too hyped up, ducks will fly at night between their daytime pond and their nightime feed range. In fact I had one impact the sidemirror of my motor car one night, wiped the mirror and the duck out. I was at 140 klicks, it possibly was doing their normal cruise range of 90 or so. It could easily have hit further back. Also one of our machines crashed during a fast run on a couple of years back but during the run on hit an obstruction. The Emerg landing was caused by a sudden wild vibration and loss of T/R control. Nothing had been seen but a subsequent detailed ground search discovered a very dead wedge tail eagle and some time later, the missing T/R blade complete with feathers and blood, so it can and does happen.

I agree the gentleman concerned had little prospect of control, at least in the latter stages, as did Sasless I believe, who hypothised on the clear areas which were not used..

Not too long back we had a double fatality in an R22 which appeared to have been overpitched as low as between 30 and 40 feet. The blade damage to the surrounding light brush was minimal as was the damage to the blades other than the typical operpitching initialised bending moment evidence which is usual on that type. What i am saying is they don't have to fall too far for the blades to virtually stop and to do lots of damage to the aircraft and its occupants. And oh yes, that machine was nearly full of fuel and did not burn.
cheers tet.
topendtorque is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 09:26
  #679 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
Previously covered on PPRuNe

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/129...cl-videos.html

If this was seen by a bystander at night, would it appear to be tumbling?
Although it is apparently a hydraulic problem from the hover, it also shows how quickly things can happen. From this, I would guess the recent incident was over in less than 10 seconds, hence my reasoning behind no radio calls.

channel 4 helicopter crashes - YouTube



Vid shows helicopter crash, so please be warned.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2013, 09:36
  #680 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
Topend, I didn't say it couldn't happen and even over here we see birds other than pheasants as road kill. You don't say what type of ac had the tail rotor birdstrike, but I'd like to know if it had a fenestron or shrouded system.

I once had a birdstrike in the early hours pulling out if Palace Bks in a Gazelle many a moon ago. After turning back, on having a look a seagull had impaled itself on the pitot tube. What are the chances of that messy mess?


As I said earlier, 'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'
SilsoeSid is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.