Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
I think you will find that the wires cross the street at a very acute angle out to the east of the pub and very unlikely to have any connection with the incident.
This is the Google earth picture, layered with the vertical view of the pierced roof, along with an EC135 to the correct scale. (Rotor ø is 10m, aligned with the 10m line I laid down in Google Earth)
It would appear that the lamp post (Yellow dot) DOES LIE JUST OUTSIDE. Note also the A/C unit underneath the starboard stabiliser, this ties exactly with damage to the unit and the airframe seen in various photos.
It would appear that the lamp post (Yellow dot) DOES LIE JUST OUTSIDE. Note also the A/C unit underneath the starboard stabiliser, this ties exactly with damage to the unit and the airframe seen in various photos.
Last edited by Nige321; 5th Dec 2013 at 19:38. Reason: Lampost position revised
Likewise the is no damage to the roof behind the aircraft.
It would appear that the lamp post (Yellow dot) would lie in the rotor disk
Agree that AC unit was smacked by stabiliser/fenestron.
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Would low (but legal) fuel increase the possibility of cavitation?
Or would tank baffles, and the fact that the engines are fed from separate tanks make a dual flameout unlikely?
Or would tank baffles, and the fact that the engines are fed from separate tanks make a dual flameout unlikely?
I fear the contents of this thread might well contribute to a significant shortage of commercial helicopter pilots in future, but not for the immediately obvious reason.
It is deeply embarrassing to witness the pompous, arrogant and highly vitriolic comments made by some of the contributors who claim to be professional pilots. Clearly some must have egos the size of a planet.
Unfortunately, many of the constructive, helpful and enlightening contributions from our more experienced members (Shy for example) are overshadowed by the crass sniping, belittling and demeaning contributions by others claiming to be ‘professional’. To watch fellow professional pilots take pot shots at their colleagues does great harm to the image of the profession. Turning this dreadful incident into a willy-waving contest is extremely distasteful.
As a fellow commercial helicopter pilot, I am very glad I don’t have to suffer being a work colleague with some of the contributors. For anybody considering becoming a commercial helicopter pilot, the thought of having to gain experience under their supervision, or worse, to have to suffer multi-crew operation with them is deeply unattractive.
The ones who are ‘mushrooming’ this aggressive and disparaging manner know who they are. I would hope that they are as disgusted with themselves as we are when re-reading what they have written. Cringeworthy. Lighten up, guys.
It is deeply embarrassing to witness the pompous, arrogant and highly vitriolic comments made by some of the contributors who claim to be professional pilots. Clearly some must have egos the size of a planet.
Unfortunately, many of the constructive, helpful and enlightening contributions from our more experienced members (Shy for example) are overshadowed by the crass sniping, belittling and demeaning contributions by others claiming to be ‘professional’. To watch fellow professional pilots take pot shots at their colleagues does great harm to the image of the profession. Turning this dreadful incident into a willy-waving contest is extremely distasteful.
As a fellow commercial helicopter pilot, I am very glad I don’t have to suffer being a work colleague with some of the contributors. For anybody considering becoming a commercial helicopter pilot, the thought of having to gain experience under their supervision, or worse, to have to suffer multi-crew operation with them is deeply unattractive.
The ones who are ‘mushrooming’ this aggressive and disparaging manner know who they are. I would hope that they are as disgusted with themselves as we are when re-reading what they have written. Cringeworthy. Lighten up, guys.
Helicopter nose down
Nige321
I pretty much agree with your position and orientation with the exception that from the visible damage to the helicopter (on crane) the machine was about 30 degrees nose down when it struck the roof.
This will keep the rotors clear of the post and allow the nose into the building respecting the line of collapse.
It would be good if you could explain how you arrived at the scale to use for the machine.
The photo below with the tail boom pointing almost straight below the camera was taken from near the alignment depicted in the google maps link that follows. The foreshortening makes it look like the boom is vertical, it is not. It is about 30 degrees from the horizontal and pointing nearly towards but below the camera.
http://goo.gl/maps/Cxecp
I pretty much agree with your position and orientation with the exception that from the visible damage to the helicopter (on crane) the machine was about 30 degrees nose down when it struck the roof.
This will keep the rotors clear of the post and allow the nose into the building respecting the line of collapse.
It would be good if you could explain how you arrived at the scale to use for the machine.
The photo below with the tail boom pointing almost straight below the camera was taken from near the alignment depicted in the google maps link that follows. The foreshortening makes it look like the boom is vertical, it is not. It is about 30 degrees from the horizontal and pointing nearly towards but below the camera.
http://goo.gl/maps/Cxecp
It would be good if you could explain how you arrived at the scale to use for the machine.
This was then placed over the roof.
Why do I keep thinking the Clutha Roof Top was not an intentional target for a landing?
I look around the Pub....and see numerous better and easier accessed landing areas....even if none of them are "good" choices given automobile and pedestrian traffic and the lack of really good lighting.
I see plenty of car parks, some open areas, some wooded areas, streets, road junctions, courtyards, and the River (remembering the aircraft was equipped with floats).....yet the aircraft wound up on the roof of a crowded Pub that was surrounded by obstacles.
I am sure most would agree it would not be the first logical choice of a place to land.
My own personal gut reaction would have been to try for the least "populated" , most open area, even if it meant landing on or between parked cars.
Unless and until we are placed into the same situation that occurred that night....we will not know what we would really do....and I mean no criticism of the Pilot....but am just trying to work through the various aspects of what we see in the photos and am trying to visualize what could have happened.
The Results of the AAIB Investigation will begin to answer the questions we all have posed and discussed as they will have far more evidence to work from.....including some of what we see here in the Thread and that they develop themselves.
I look around the Pub....and see numerous better and easier accessed landing areas....even if none of them are "good" choices given automobile and pedestrian traffic and the lack of really good lighting.
I see plenty of car parks, some open areas, some wooded areas, streets, road junctions, courtyards, and the River (remembering the aircraft was equipped with floats).....yet the aircraft wound up on the roof of a crowded Pub that was surrounded by obstacles.
I am sure most would agree it would not be the first logical choice of a place to land.
My own personal gut reaction would have been to try for the least "populated" , most open area, even if it meant landing on or between parked cars.
Unless and until we are placed into the same situation that occurred that night....we will not know what we would really do....and I mean no criticism of the Pilot....but am just trying to work through the various aspects of what we see in the photos and am trying to visualize what could have happened.
The Results of the AAIB Investigation will begin to answer the questions we all have posed and discussed as they will have far more evidence to work from.....including some of what we see here in the Thread and that they develop themselves.
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There are some fairly interesting comments on twitter from other "witnesses" who didn't see anything but certainly heard it:
"Lying in bed in my flat on high street in Glasgow and heard helicopter overhead making a strange sound...then nothing! Think it's crashed"
Then
"
Sadly I was right, instinct told me that helicopter was in trouble. I hear them overhead regularly and this was different.
"
www.twitter.com/aidej
"Lying in bed in my flat on high street in Glasgow and heard helicopter overhead making a strange sound...then nothing! Think it's crashed"
Then
"
Sadly I was right, instinct told me that helicopter was in trouble. I hear them overhead regularly and this was different.
"
www.twitter.com/aidej
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
You've made a couple of big assumptions there Sasless;
a. There was a choice of where to land.
b. The flotation gear was armed.
a. There was a choice of where to land.
b. The flotation gear was armed.
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pilotmike
There may be others, but perhaps it is I to whom you refer?
If so, perhaps the only thing you have correct is that I do indeed claim to be a professional aviator. I would have thought 33 years of military, civil, police, rotary and fixed wing would allow me to so 'claim'?
Just because I have seen all this kind of speculation many times before (and was heartily sick the first time!) should not make me pompous, nor a pain to fly with. As amateur accident investigators, some here remind me of a T shirt I once saw, which said: "Amateur Gynaecologist.... Not strictly qualified, but always happy to take a look!"
Any professionals on here should know better, because as some of us know well, one day this could be you, and it will be YOUR loved ones reading this drivel! There will be only one explanation for this tragedy. It will be regurgitated here when the real professionals announce it, but there will be little else to learn from pilots who are amateur (and mostly poor) investigators before then!
If you don't like that opinion, then I'm afraid, from someone who has seen much of these things before, that is your problem.
My only interest has only EVER been to protect my professional colleagues. When I can no longer do that, looking after their loved ones becomes the ONLY game in town. They will be here!
Bear that in mind please.
It is deeply embarrassing to witness the pompous, arrogant and highly vitriolic comments made by some of the contributors who claim to be professional pilots.
If so, perhaps the only thing you have correct is that I do indeed claim to be a professional aviator. I would have thought 33 years of military, civil, police, rotary and fixed wing would allow me to so 'claim'?
Just because I have seen all this kind of speculation many times before (and was heartily sick the first time!) should not make me pompous, nor a pain to fly with. As amateur accident investigators, some here remind me of a T shirt I once saw, which said: "Amateur Gynaecologist.... Not strictly qualified, but always happy to take a look!"
Any professionals on here should know better, because as some of us know well, one day this could be you, and it will be YOUR loved ones reading this drivel! There will be only one explanation for this tragedy. It will be regurgitated here when the real professionals announce it, but there will be little else to learn from pilots who are amateur (and mostly poor) investigators before then!
If you don't like that opinion, then I'm afraid, from someone who has seen much of these things before, that is your problem.
My only interest has only EVER been to protect my professional colleagues. When I can no longer do that, looking after their loved ones becomes the ONLY game in town. They will be here!
Bear that in mind please.
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PilotMike is bang on. You see variations of this type of overbearing behaviour on all sorts of forums. The usual suspects engaging the 'nuclear' option early in the discourse, demonstrating no sense of balance or proportionality! Not to mention patience or common courtesy.
It makes for very tedious reading at times. And no matter how 'informed' these individuals appear to be, their lack of manners obscures their contribution.
It's a form of attempted censorship, but my rights don't end where your annoyance begins!!
I knew Tony. I'll spare a wee thought for them all. But I want to know what happened.
Thanks.
It makes for very tedious reading at times. And no matter how 'informed' these individuals appear to be, their lack of manners obscures their contribution.
It's a form of attempted censorship, but my rights don't end where your annoyance begins!!
I knew Tony. I'll spare a wee thought for them all. But I want to know what happened.
Thanks.
SASless, I'll offer a response to your musing:
The extremely short time period in which to sort his problem out (since we can probably go to the bank with the pilot being faced with a sudden and catastrophic failure of some sort that precluded any precautionary (versus forced) landing) ... combined with the flight being at night over an urban area ... would make picking up all of the visual cues for the desired forced landing in what the pilot would intend to be a place "where people aren't" a real bugger. Flying over urban area, someone with his experience would doubtless be aware of there being a lot of wires, poles, and all sorts of obstructions as we get near the ground. Finding a decent spot is by itself a bit of a challenge. In the back of the mind is the intent to avoid getting to the bottom, pulling, and having the main rotor blade hit something (like the side of a building) and turning a forced landing into something far worse in the middle of the flare/pull.
As each second ticks by, the number of options for "spot to put this machine down" shrink rapidly.
If, as some contributors have suggested, he did not have as much NR as he'd have liked, this challenging scenario gets an added degree of difficulty from an RoD higher than one might be used to from from practicing an autorotative descent on training flights.
Add to that the possibility that the helicopter swapped ends a few times (that's one read on the witness reports of "helicopter tumbling" "going end over end" ), coupled with a bit less control authority than one is used to (if NR was significantly low, then control inputs could well be less responsive than one's feel would be used to) ... and you end up with a nightmare scenario for any helicopter pilot.
If my guess on how the end game played out is right, he damn near managed it.
The extremely short time period in which to sort his problem out (since we can probably go to the bank with the pilot being faced with a sudden and catastrophic failure of some sort that precluded any precautionary (versus forced) landing) ... combined with the flight being at night over an urban area ... would make picking up all of the visual cues for the desired forced landing in what the pilot would intend to be a place "where people aren't" a real bugger. Flying over urban area, someone with his experience would doubtless be aware of there being a lot of wires, poles, and all sorts of obstructions as we get near the ground. Finding a decent spot is by itself a bit of a challenge. In the back of the mind is the intent to avoid getting to the bottom, pulling, and having the main rotor blade hit something (like the side of a building) and turning a forced landing into something far worse in the middle of the flare/pull.
As each second ticks by, the number of options for "spot to put this machine down" shrink rapidly.
If, as some contributors have suggested, he did not have as much NR as he'd have liked, this challenging scenario gets an added degree of difficulty from an RoD higher than one might be used to from from practicing an autorotative descent on training flights.
Add to that the possibility that the helicopter swapped ends a few times (that's one read on the witness reports of "helicopter tumbling" "going end over end" ), coupled with a bit less control authority than one is used to (if NR was significantly low, then control inputs could well be less responsive than one's feel would be used to) ... and you end up with a nightmare scenario for any helicopter pilot.
If my guess on how the end game played out is right, he damn near managed it.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 5th Dec 2013 at 21:54.
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walkindude
I know precisely how you must feel, but what on earth makes you think you will find any answers here?
I knew Tony. I'll spare a wee thought for them all. But I want to know what happened.
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To the poster a short while back asking about the roof collapse sequence being slow, I am certain that the slow part of it did not happen below the helicopter. The band/stage area is not where the bar area is, the impact was here and was hard, the ceiling that collapsed in stages was close by but not close enough to be immediately affected.
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Tandemrotor.
I don't know if you have.
And anyway, it's irrelevant to my point. Democracy, and freedom of speech and thought is not in the gift of you or anyone else on this forum; in this country it's a given.
At the moment there is no official determination of cause. So human beings speculate. This is a discussion forum. I see no conceivable reason, beyond libellous or illegal posts, why anyone would want to attempt to stymie any or all discussion however well, or otherwise, informed it may be?
You'll again note I don't include 'upset' to anyone in the above catagory. Neither you, nor me, nor anyone has the 'right' to go through their lives and not be offended.
This is not meant to single you out in any way, I'm just responding, publicly, to your query.
Thanks again.
I don't know if you have.
And anyway, it's irrelevant to my point. Democracy, and freedom of speech and thought is not in the gift of you or anyone else on this forum; in this country it's a given.
At the moment there is no official determination of cause. So human beings speculate. This is a discussion forum. I see no conceivable reason, beyond libellous or illegal posts, why anyone would want to attempt to stymie any or all discussion however well, or otherwise, informed it may be?
You'll again note I don't include 'upset' to anyone in the above catagory. Neither you, nor me, nor anyone has the 'right' to go through their lives and not be offended.
This is not meant to single you out in any way, I'm just responding, publicly, to your query.
Thanks again.
