Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 23rd Jan 2014, 18:59
  #1881 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 801
Originally Posted by Lemain View Post
Incidentally, on the subject of the effect of a full load on the generator braking the rotor shaft, of the Night Sun at 1600W, that's over 2hp.
Exactly.
2HP.
On a twin turbine helicopter with 1200+HP.
You don't want to tell me that you will notice a variation of +/- 1HP in an EC135???
Guys, seriously....
henra is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2014, 21:12
  #1882 (permalink)  
Rotorheads Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PPRuNe
Posts: 3,079
Piechaser and Lemain,

A reminder that this forum is "for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them".

Neither of you are helicopter professionals yet you are abusing the courtesies being shown you by those who are. There are a number of non-professionals who have worn out their welcome and are restricted from posting here: it should be obvious to both of you that constant harping about trivialities with needless references to boating by Lemain are wearing very, very thin and you are on the verge of being similarly restricted.
Senior Pilot is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2014, 21:38
  #1883 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,684
Phew.......and take a deep breath........................
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2014, 22:18
  #1884 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 294
SP and others. Sorry to have caused any offence.
Lemain is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 00:12
  #1885 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,617
With 98 pages on this thread, containing 1952 posts of discussion on the incident, after reading through FLM's, tech manuals, countless training pdf's, the countless other references given and sitting in an ac trying to work things through, despite almost every possibility presented to us, as much as I like the alien abduction theory, based on the facts I'm still going for a tail problem.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 08:44
  #1886 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Auckland
Age: 76
Posts: 191
"EVERYTHING IS OBVIOUS once you know the answer"

"EVERYTHING IS OBVIOUS once you know the answer" by Duncan J Watts, a former officer in Royal Australian Navy, PhD in theoretical and applied mechanics from Cornell and a professor of sociology at Columbia, is a book worth reading while waiting for the AAIB Report.

I don't know much but I doubt it will be one thing going wrong. Witnesses heard unusual noises early in the flight and the 95 litres remaining might not have been sufficient for fuel to reach the engine(s) in certain conceivable circumstances.
Ornis is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 12:53
  #1887 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
Posts: 165
Just seen this on the BBC

BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: Payments to Clutha victims
nomorehelosforme is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 14:14
  #1888 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 27
Its being reported locally that Bond has paid compensation to the victims already, which I find strange, surely this means that legally they accept some sort of blame?


I know its the 'right thing to do' but legally I would have thought that some would see it as an admission of some sort.
CJ Romeo is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 14:39
  #1889 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,617
I know it's a rumour network, but there's nothing better than a link;

BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: Payments to Clutha victims
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 14:43
  #1890 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 27
I hadn't seen it there, heard it on the radio!
CJ Romeo is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 14:54
  #1891 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,617
Heard it on the radio, straight to PPRuNe, not enough time to google just incase someone else posted it first
Anyway, thanks for highlighting it.
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 15:02
  #1892 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,400
CJ, I am not sure how it works in the UK, but here in the US there is a thing called "strict liability" that covers a lot of tort cases. I suspect something similar is in place in the UK based upon what is in the article linked.

Strict liability means that "your helicopter landed on my house and my wife is dead" becomes a tort (a wrong or injury done) which leads to a claim for compensation, or "being made whole" via the application of a cash poultice. It doesn't matter if it is willful, negligent, or pure accident, the damage is done. In the US, a willful or negligent factor will often increase the fiscal punishment or award, but that is a detail.

I am pretty sure all helicopter companies carry liability insurance for just such cases. Further that point, I expect that their legal counsel and their insurer have pursued reaching a settlement rather than going to court, as that often makes the overall financial outflow less. This appears to be an interim measure, if the article has all of its facts straight.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 15:04
  #1893 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Posts: 1,513
76 Liability of aircraft in respect of trespass, nuisance and surface damage.
(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, where material loss or damage is caused to any person or property on land or water by, or by a person in, or an article, animal or person falling from, an aircraft while in flight, taking off or landing, then unless the loss or damage was caused or contributed to by the negligence of the person by whom it was suffered, damages in respect of the loss or damage shall be recoverable without proof of negligence or intention or other cause of action, as if the loss or damage had been caused by the wilful act, neglect, or default of the owner of the aircraft.
Pretty much standard throughout the planet for any operator who is obliged to carry liability insurance. No "admission of guilt" at all.

Dare I say it but I think this thread should be renamed or another started "Dumb questions - Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub"
RVDT is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 18:01
  #1894 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Auckland
Age: 76
Posts: 191
Questions and answers

I suspect when the AAIB Report is tabled there will be plenty of humble pie for everyone.

A few crumbs might even reach the floor for me, a PPL(A) lying prostrate in deference to my betters.

C J Romeo made valuable contributions about the roof structure the helicopter punched through, in what some people seemed to think was a landing.
Ornis is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 18:25
  #1895 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,617
Originally Posted by Ornis View Post
I suspect when the AAIB Report is tabled there will be plenty of humble pie for everyone.

A few crumbs might even reach the floor for me, a PPL(A) lying prostrate in deference to my betters.

C J Romeo made valuable contributions about the roof structure the helicopter punched through, in what some people seemed to think was a landing.
24th Jan 2014 15:04

Ornis, you can have your own full slice of that pie;

Landing

an act or process of one that lands; especially : a going or bringing to a surface (as land or shore) after a voyage or flight

Landing - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
SilsoeSid is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 18:25
  #1896 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 27
I wasn't aware of that legislation, not being an aviation professional.

In my game anything like that is advised against lest it be seen as an admission of some sort.

I have no axe to grind, no status to maintain, no face to keep and I'm not insinuating anything!
CJ Romeo is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 18:53
  #1897 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 826
Failure mode - running out of fuel.

What do you think running out of fuel whilst having 70ishkg on board looks like ... how does in stop?

Quickly? Instantly? - or with a lot of re-igniting as more of the 'unusable fuel' becoming useable now and then?

If an 'unuseable quantity' is so relatively high then reaching that 'unusable' amount will not be a clear and instantaneous event but a drawn out process of intermitancy. Similar to what the witnesses describe.

If the unuseable quantity were 1 kg then the engine stoppage would then be much more clean cut.

Taking a long time and being very messy would be very disconcerting for the pilot and could cause a very confusing and awkward cockpit environment whilst trying to make sense of it all. (part of the inherent downside of a twin which gets dismissed here thoughtlessly)

I don't think certification requirments deal with such considerations, and since helicopters are effectively designed by regulators it would be unexpected if the manufacturer's designer would bother thinking about such non-mandatory aspects of design.

Has anyone tested the running out of fuel process in this type?
I doubt it.
Should they? OF COURSE!!

or is everyone happy to just go on thinking it's all very simple and easy: One engine just runs down you then have 2 mins to land in an orderly fashion, God is a smiley bloke sitting on a cloud, girls enjoy head, the cheque really is in the post, your NAA is there to make things safer ?
AnFI is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 18:53
  #1898 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scotland
Age: 54
Posts: 25
Witnesses heard unusual noises early in the flight
Ornis: Where did this information come from?
Wetbulb is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 19:02
  #1899 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Auckland
Age: 76
Posts: 191
SilsoeSid, thanks for the offer to share. Will the menu at your High Table include raspberries?
Ornis is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2014, 19:05
  #1900 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 826
especially messy when you consider the other engine winding itself up to take the load followed by winding itself down as the starved engine is re-supplied with fuel and contributes again. It is just not the clean process that a 'prof check' checks or a training program addresses. Dead pilots often don't get a fair break and it all looks so much simpler from the armchair.
AnFI is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.