Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
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Until the point at which you try to gain airspeed or get close to the ground. 20' above the ground is not the time to find out either that the wind isn't going to help you or the fenestron blade pitch isn't enough.
All totally hypothetical, not even remotely in line with the evidence, and frankly a little crazy!
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From the bulletin;
"Initially, the helicopter routed towards a location on the south side of Glasgow city centre, about 2 nm south-east of GCH. It remained in that area, at an altitude of approximately 1,000 ft amsl, for about 30 minutes. It then transited to Dalkeith,..."
Quick look on the way back in?
"Initially, the helicopter routed towards a location on the south side of Glasgow city centre, about 2 nm south-east of GCH. It remained in that area, at an altitude of approximately 1,000 ft amsl, for about 30 minutes. It then transited to Dalkeith,..."
Quick look on the way back in?
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In this totally hypothetical scenario, I think I would prefer hitting the ground (even whilst rotating) from 20' rather than climbing back up and hitting the ground from much, much higher?
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Is that what you think he was doing then?
So you do think he had 'gone around'?
I'm losing track here, and frankly I'm a little confused!
So you do think he had 'gone around'?
I'm losing track here, and frankly I'm a little confused!
No, I don't think he'd gone around. There is however imho, the good possibility that on the way back in, they went for a quick look at the earlier job.
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Dalkeith is 80km away. By the time they'd returned from there, whatever had been going on in SE Glasgow was likely long over.
While it all remains a mystery, there is at least largely complete wreckage, whose damage, and the pub roof, can reveal how fast and in what orientation the helicopter arrived. With several witnesses, whose immediate and very unexpected testimony I wouldn't discount, I'm sure the investigation will succeed in establishing the events and causes.
There was fuel… but maybe it was out of reach?
The impact was hard and steep… but just how hard?
The wreckage was complete and together.
Is there anything else currently known?
While it all remains a mystery, there is at least largely complete wreckage, whose damage, and the pub roof, can reveal how fast and in what orientation the helicopter arrived. With several witnesses, whose immediate and very unexpected testimony I wouldn't discount, I'm sure the investigation will succeed in establishing the events and causes.
There was fuel… but maybe it was out of reach?
The impact was hard and steep… but just how hard?
The wreckage was complete and together.
Is there anything else currently known?
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By the time they'd returned from there, whatever had been going on in SE Glasgow was likely long over.
Nothing more as yet, Piechaser in post 1723, 11 Jan 18:46, hinted at a further release shortly, but nothing so far.
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So to summarise Sid: I started this exchange this morning by saying:
You then countered by saying:
But now you've changed your mind?? It wasn't preparing for landing/on an approach at all?
So shall we just ask the mods to delete the wild goose chase you've just taken us on, and start again from the basic point I opened with?
An autorotation into a congested area would only have been required by a tail rotor malfunction whilst the aircraft was in or close to the hover.
Is there any evidence that it was?
Because if it wasn't, we need to be looking elsewhere to discover why neither engine was producing power.
I think there are other potential reasons.
It goes without saying, I am of course speculating. I probably know as well as anyone that I should not!
Firstly, if the aircraft really was tumbling, don't you think it's remarkable that it struck the roof of The Clutha in a perfectly upright, wings level attitude?
Secondly, if the aircraft was, as it's last radio transmission suggested, simply transiting back to base, I don't really think the fenestron drive failure would result in an instant forced landing into a very 'hostile' area. Nor can I imagine any plausible fenestron control failure in forward flight that would trigger an immediate auto into the City centre.
Is there any suggestion the aircraft was at low speed/hover immediately prior to the accident?
Secondly, if the aircraft was, as it's last radio transmission suggested, simply transiting back to base, I don't really think the fenestron drive failure would result in an instant forced landing into a very 'hostile' area. Nor can I imagine any plausible fenestron control failure in forward flight that would trigger an immediate auto into the City centre.
Is there any suggestion the aircraft was at low speed/hover immediately prior to the accident?
En-route back to base, one minute out, slow(ing) to below 80 kts in order to raise downlink and/or arm flotation gear?
So shall we just ask the mods to delete the wild goose chase you've just taken us on, and start again from the basic point I opened with?
An autorotation into a congested area would only have been required by a tail rotor malfunction whilst the aircraft was in or close to the hover.
Is there any evidence that it was?
Because if it wasn't, we need to be looking elsewhere to discover why neither engine was producing power.
I think there are other potential reasons.
It goes without saying, I am of course speculating. I probably know as well as anyone that I should not!
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I don't think I've changed my mind.
I've said that at that particular distance from base and phase of flight, they were probably reducing speed in order to complete the pre landing checks. I have also said that they could very possibly have slowed down on the way back in order to check out the previous job.
It's not a change of mind, just 2 possibilities as to how they could have been at a low speed when something happened down the back end.
I've said that at that particular distance from base and phase of flight, they were probably reducing speed in order to complete the pre landing checks. I have also said that they could very possibly have slowed down on the way back in order to check out the previous job.
It's not a change of mind, just 2 possibilities as to how they could have been at a low speed when something happened down the back end.
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Very good pointer 4listair.
Reading those posts does nothing but support my own suspicion. Anyone interested should refresh themselves with those statements to see what they make of them.
I don't believe the engines were starved of fuel in any way. Nor do I believe a tail rotor fault caused the accident. I certainly don't think both engines were intentionally shut down.
All utter speculation on my part of course, and I could easily be completely wrong. An absolute tragedy whatever the cause or causes.
Reading those posts does nothing but support my own suspicion. Anyone interested should refresh themselves with those statements to see what they make of them.
I don't believe the engines were starved of fuel in any way. Nor do I believe a tail rotor fault caused the accident. I certainly don't think both engines were intentionally shut down.
All utter speculation on my part of course, and I could easily be completely wrong. An absolute tragedy whatever the cause or causes.
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Surprised you may be, but those 2 possibilities are what I've been saying all along.
Nothing Sid says surprises anyone who knows him.
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Do we know whether the flight to Dalkieth was planned at the time the aircraft took off, or was requested once airborne?
No we don't.
If the flight to Dalkeith was tasked after takeoff on the original sortie, the pilot would presumably have to assess the feasibility of the request from a fuel perspective "on the hoof" so to speak?
The initial task in the local area would not have presented any challenges from a fuel perspective, but factoring in a trip to Dalkeith would have taken them much further towards the edge of the fuel envelope. 10 minutes on task at Dalkeith doesn't seem very long, although I acknowledge the effectiveness of the helicopter in many situations, so I guess it could have achieved whatever its objective was in this time.
If the decision to fly to Dalkeith was marginal, and if the fuel contents monitoring systems were suffering from the fault subsequenly found on other airframes, the advent of the red "final warning" light with no prior amber warnings over central Glasgow would have been a nasty shock to say the least, and would presumably have presented a terrible dilemma: park the aircraft somewhere very high profile and sub optimal, or try for home.
Quite a number of "ifs" and presumptions I know, and hence just an attempt to try to string the evidence together rather than point any finger.
The initial task in the local area would not have presented any challenges from a fuel perspective, but factoring in a trip to Dalkeith would have taken them much further towards the edge of the fuel envelope. 10 minutes on task at Dalkeith doesn't seem very long, although I acknowledge the effectiveness of the helicopter in many situations, so I guess it could have achieved whatever its objective was in this time.
If the decision to fly to Dalkeith was marginal, and if the fuel contents monitoring systems were suffering from the fault subsequenly found on other airframes, the advent of the red "final warning" light with no prior amber warnings over central Glasgow would have been a nasty shock to say the least, and would presumably have presented a terrible dilemma: park the aircraft somewhere very high profile and sub optimal, or try for home.
Quite a number of "ifs" and presumptions I know, and hence just an attempt to try to string the evidence together rather than point any finger.
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If the Edinburgh task was requested while airborne, I'm sure it's fair to say that the fuel would have been assessed as part of the response. If it was considered 'marginal', either a refuel at base or Edinburgh would have been considered.
Once on scene, a bingo fuel would have been re-calculated. If that the task entailed further time beyond that bingo, then I would have thought that another bingo would then be calculated for Edinburgh Airport. However, it would appear that the task was completed with plenty of fuel to get back to base, with enough to go to the other locations en route.
With 400 kgs on board at take off and presumably a 90kg MLA, the quantity of fuel shouldn't have been a problem. I wonder when the last time the main tank ran empty was.
Once on scene, a bingo fuel would have been re-calculated. If that the task entailed further time beyond that bingo, then I would have thought that another bingo would then be calculated for Edinburgh Airport. However, it would appear that the task was completed with plenty of fuel to get back to base, with enough to go to the other locations en route.
With 400 kgs on board at take off and presumably a 90kg MLA, the quantity of fuel shouldn't have been a problem. I wonder when the last time the main tank ran empty was.
Sid,
what I am getting at is, that were the fuel gauge problem problem present, the calculations regarding viability of the Dalkeith trip, and of bingo fuel on task would have been invalid as they would have been based on incorrect (optimistic) contents readings. The pilot would have no doubt intuitively been aware that fuel was tight, but on arrival back in the Glasgow vicinity with no amber warnings showing, may well have started to relax. The appearance of the red warnings would have been a shock and very confusing.
Once again, some key assumptions being made without factual support, but it puts the functioning aircraft over Glasgow in the hands of a highly capable pilot who has done nothing wrong, but is about to run out of fuel and has a key decision to make: park the aircraft, or try for home, a tantalisingly short distance away. Which of course assumes that he didnt dismiss the red light as a fault, as it wasnt preceeded by amber....
what I am getting at is, that were the fuel gauge problem problem present, the calculations regarding viability of the Dalkeith trip, and of bingo fuel on task would have been invalid as they would have been based on incorrect (optimistic) contents readings. The pilot would have no doubt intuitively been aware that fuel was tight, but on arrival back in the Glasgow vicinity with no amber warnings showing, may well have started to relax. The appearance of the red warnings would have been a shock and very confusing.
Once again, some key assumptions being made without factual support, but it puts the functioning aircraft over Glasgow in the hands of a highly capable pilot who has done nothing wrong, but is about to run out of fuel and has a key decision to make: park the aircraft, or try for home, a tantalisingly short distance away. Which of course assumes that he didnt dismiss the red light as a fault, as it wasnt preceeded by amber....
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Fuel starvation does not make you crash, it makes the engines stop running.
All of this wild speculation about fuel still misses two important points.
1 If they had needed more fuel, then they would have had it. With enough fuel drained from the aircraft to have got them home safe, it seems unlikely that fuel was an issue. That sortie length and profile is not abnormal for that aircraft/crew.
2 All that happpens when you run out of fuel is that the engines stop.
Something prevented Dave from landing the aircraft. The Dyfed Powys accident was from 400 feet, although in daylight, and they walked away from it. Both engines ran down together, so a pilot with similar levels of experience to Dave, just landed the 109.
1 If they had needed more fuel, then they would have had it. With enough fuel drained from the aircraft to have got them home safe, it seems unlikely that fuel was an issue. That sortie length and profile is not abnormal for that aircraft/crew.
2 All that happpens when you run out of fuel is that the engines stop.
Something prevented Dave from landing the aircraft. The Dyfed Powys accident was from 400 feet, although in daylight, and they walked away from it. Both engines ran down together, so a pilot with similar levels of experience to Dave, just landed the 109.
