Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
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There are things besides a power failure that will put an aircraft down right now, even a Cat A capable twin.
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I'm having a hard time trying to convince myself this was the result of an autorotation. As someone else said, a 7-8ft drop from a roof you would expect to survive.
I'm just thinking the plotted course and height as shown re PB would indicate where this started from, and might shed more light on a cause.
I notice the police are now appealing for all video and audio recordings the public took of the scene before and after the incident.
BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: Police appeal for Clutha tragedy video
I'm just thinking the plotted course and height as shown re PB would indicate where this started from, and might shed more light on a cause.
I notice the police are now appealing for all video and audio recordings the public took of the scene before and after the incident.
BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: Police appeal for Clutha tragedy video
Last edited by S Jones; 30th Nov 2013 at 21:47.
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Looking at the overhead Google view someone posted - it appears the roof of the building is black, and there are trees. Could a stressed pilot in an emergency have taken a quick look below him and in the dark mistaken the roof for an empty parking lot? That would explain opting to land there, rather than the roadway.
Poor chap.
I imagine he would have had the briefest of moments to frantically look around and try to find what looked like an open space that didn't have cars houses or people in it.
I imagine he would have had the briefest of moments to frantically look around and try to find what looked like an open space that didn't have cars houses or people in it.
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S Jones - Re the car park, as an irregular regular in the Clutha (maybe 1-3 gigs/month depending on who is playing), very few folk drive to/from the pub. At that time of night on a Friday the north end of the car park (nearest the yuppier venues round King St) would be have a few cars. No way have I seen that carpark ever be more than 25% full at night. There would be very few if any to the south. Plenty space to put down if the pilot had a choice.
As for the chopper course, I saw a report from a police source that it was eastbound along the river NOT heading west to the base.
As for the chopper course, I saw a report from a police source that it was eastbound along the river NOT heading west to the base.
Shy,
A couple of weeks ago while driving through Dunstable on my way to Newbury....the Plod were doing something that involved their helicopter.
The helicopter was hovering OGE at about 400 feet AGL....and did so for quite some time.
That would have put the aircraft into a very precarious position for several reasons....and is a normal Police Operation.
Now if we are talking routine patrol operations....done in a Twin at some weight that allows OEI flight back to base....then fair dinkum.
A couple of weeks ago while driving through Dunstable on my way to Newbury....the Plod were doing something that involved their helicopter.
The helicopter was hovering OGE at about 400 feet AGL....and did so for quite some time.
That would have put the aircraft into a very precarious position for several reasons....and is a normal Police Operation.
Now if we are talking routine patrol operations....done in a Twin at some weight that allows OEI flight back to base....then fair dinkum.
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One post mentioned something about rescue workers in the basement. I would assume that if anything broke through the floor into the basement, it would have been the main (heaviest) part of the helicopter, so rather than a 7-8 foot drop, it could easily have been at least double that.
Further - something could have entered the cockpit - or, if they survived the initial "landing" relatively unscathed, they might have unbuckled and been starting to get out when it dropped.
Further - something could have entered the cockpit - or, if they survived the initial "landing" relatively unscathed, they might have unbuckled and been starting to get out when it dropped.
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I have not seen mention of any distress call being transmitted on either ATC or operational frequencies. This could imply that time from cause to effect was minimal and any likelihood that the pilot had time to choose his landing site, or mistake a dark roof for a car park as slim. Even if he was busy dealing with the failure(s) he had two crew members who are trained to assist with aircraft emergency handling.
I'm also intrigued that my previous post has gone unanswered regarding whether the type is being temporarily grounded, particularly as a number of current 135 drivers are posting. I assume the answer is, gratifyingly, no.
SW
I'm also intrigued that my previous post has gone unanswered regarding whether the type is being temporarily grounded, particularly as a number of current 135 drivers are posting. I assume the answer is, gratifyingly, no.
SW
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400 feet agl certainly wasn't a height we often operated at - in fact I can't recall why this would be needed on a day to day basis.
1200 feet was a good compromise for most jobs, especially where built up areas were concerned.
More importantly, is there any evidence to suggest this aircraft (I mean the one we're supposed to be discussing on this thread) was on task, hovering at 400 feet?
BTW, unless things have changed very much since I left the job, UK Police helicopters do not carry out "routine patrols".
1200 feet was a good compromise for most jobs, especially where built up areas were concerned.
More importantly, is there any evidence to suggest this aircraft (I mean the one we're supposed to be discussing on this thread) was on task, hovering at 400 feet?
BTW, unless things have changed very much since I left the job, UK Police helicopters do not carry out "routine patrols".
On the issue of recorded on-board data, if the FLIR camera was turned on would it contain a recording of the crew's conversation for the duration of the period when the camera is on?
From my understanding of these police FLIR cameras, they record radio transmissions from the ground to air and vice versa and there isn't a facility to turn off the intercom system so that the air crew can converse in privacy. I'm not sure if "record" has to be selected for the FLIR camera to save all data (picture and sound) onto the video recording system. If it was recording, it could prove extremely useful in the investigation into this tragedy.
Police officers and helicopter pilots both carry out jobs that are regarded by the man in the street as being "out of the ordinary". Both get a view of the world that few get to see and both careers can be very interesting and rewarding. Unfortunately, both must also go to work each day knowing that if luck isn't with them they might not make it home that night. Sadly, that day has come for the crew of this helicopter and also for those on the ground.
500 Fan.
From my understanding of these police FLIR cameras, they record radio transmissions from the ground to air and vice versa and there isn't a facility to turn off the intercom system so that the air crew can converse in privacy. I'm not sure if "record" has to be selected for the FLIR camera to save all data (picture and sound) onto the video recording system. If it was recording, it could prove extremely useful in the investigation into this tragedy.
Police officers and helicopter pilots both carry out jobs that are regarded by the man in the street as being "out of the ordinary". Both get a view of the world that few get to see and both careers can be very interesting and rewarding. Unfortunately, both must also go to work each day knowing that if luck isn't with them they might not make it home that night. Sadly, that day has come for the crew of this helicopter and also for those on the ground.
500 Fan.
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From one of the local Glasgow forums - Speculation, but may give a picture of what it was up to prior to the accident.
'Will be a miracle of no one dies. Can't help but think it has run out of fuel trying to get back to SECC. A woman from Govanhill said it had been hovering over head with spotlight on railway line for quite a long time before incident.'
'I saw something on twitter during the day that a person was hit by a train on the Glasgow central line today, so it makes sense that the helicopter may have been doing something related to that incident.'
The junction itself is well served for CCTV but the police seem to now be appealing for video to be sent in which suggest it may have missed the incident.
The Sun Editor was probably on the Qparks car park roof. From memory that has no view to the South (Clyde) and limited views to the East (Cathedral blocks view towards Clutha) and West (Tenements) although it's slightly better to the East if he was at that end of roof. That suggests he probably observed it coming in from the North or North-East which implies a path across the large King street car park.
'Will be a miracle of no one dies. Can't help but think it has run out of fuel trying to get back to SECC. A woman from Govanhill said it had been hovering over head with spotlight on railway line for quite a long time before incident.'
'I saw something on twitter during the day that a person was hit by a train on the Glasgow central line today, so it makes sense that the helicopter may have been doing something related to that incident.'
The junction itself is well served for CCTV but the police seem to now be appealing for video to be sent in which suggest it may have missed the incident.
The Sun Editor was probably on the Qparks car park roof. From memory that has no view to the South (Clyde) and limited views to the East (Cathedral blocks view towards Clutha) and West (Tenements) although it's slightly better to the East if he was at that end of roof. That suggests he probably observed it coming in from the North or North-East which implies a path across the large King street car park.
Hovering OGE in and of itself is not "questionable" and certainly was not the intent of my post to suggest it was. I was stating Police Operations like many other uses for Helicopters can place one in situations that add to the ordinary exposure to risk.
I am guessing at the height....and certainly would not consider what I saw being done as being careless or reckless in any way.
So Shy....if UK Plod do not perform "Routine Patrol"....what do they do? What was the mission the accident aircraft was performing when this tragedy occurred?
Would there be Radar Trace data to show heights/airspeeds and other useful data?
I am guessing at the height....and certainly would not consider what I saw being done as being careless or reckless in any way.
So Shy....if UK Plod do not perform "Routine Patrol"....what do they do? What was the mission the accident aircraft was performing when this tragedy occurred?
Would there be Radar Trace data to show heights/airspeeds and other useful data?
SAS
Hopefully AAIB will find all this type of info, I know people have comments but with an incident as serious as this do we we need wild speculation and political comments!
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@Steveo67 Gordon Smart stated he was about 250 feet from the incident, which to me puts him at the Qpark multistorey on Dunlop Street, just to the west of the Clutha.
"It fell like a stone" Scottish Sun editor Gordon Smart main witness of Glasgow Police Helicopter crash | The Drum
His account does give the impression it came straight down, as opposed to an auto'ing glide, but that he did not see the impact.
"It fell like a stone" Scottish Sun editor Gordon Smart main witness of Glasgow Police Helicopter crash | The Drum
His account does give the impression it came straight down, as opposed to an auto'ing glide, but that he did not see the impact.
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SASless, I have no information on the mission being flown during/prior to the accident, only second hand speculation on here.
Routine helicopter patrols are (or certainly were in my time, well before NPAS days) deemed too expensive and a waste of aircraft hours, which could not be justified to the taxpayer. The ASU responded to actual task requests, as required by the control rooms (we were a joint force unit).
The (police) members of the crew at my unit did have the authority to "self launch" to a developing situation if seen appropriate; for that reason the radios of both forces were constantly being monitored by the unit. The only "patrolling" done was the return flight from a completed task.
Routine helicopter patrols are (or certainly were in my time, well before NPAS days) deemed too expensive and a waste of aircraft hours, which could not be justified to the taxpayer. The ASU responded to actual task requests, as required by the control rooms (we were a joint force unit).
The (police) members of the crew at my unit did have the authority to "self launch" to a developing situation if seen appropriate; for that reason the radios of both forces were constantly being monitored by the unit. The only "patrolling" done was the return flight from a completed task.
Could a stressed pilot in an emergency have taken a quick look below him and in the dark mistaken the roof for an empty parking lot
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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
I am sure all our thoughts are with all he families bereaved by this tragic accident.
I know the area quite well but only from ground. If the aircraft was in transit eastwards it is likely that they would have been over the Clyde. The proximity of highish structures immediately in land would suggest to me that he crossroads at bridgeton/ Clyde street was perhaps the emergency aiming point if this was a controlled autorotation. Options are limited and control may have been compromised. Whatever the circumstances I am certain the pilot had due regard both for his passengers and anyone on the ground.
I know the area quite well but only from ground. If the aircraft was in transit eastwards it is likely that they would have been over the Clyde. The proximity of highish structures immediately in land would suggest to me that he crossroads at bridgeton/ Clyde street was perhaps the emergency aiming point if this was a controlled autorotation. Options are limited and control may have been compromised. Whatever the circumstances I am certain the pilot had due regard both for his passengers and anyone on the ground.
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@S Jones Yes, that ties up more with other accounts. I'm probably putting too much emphasis on his earlier statements about 'see[ing] the angle, the speed and the trajectory of the fall'. Angle and trajectory could both be referring to the vertical.
However, I've still got doubts about how much he could have seen of a drop from 4/500ft given the significant blocking by the Cathedral in the direction of the Clutha from that roof. Should also probably note that Govanhill (area of earlier hovering) is to the south on the other side of the Clyde.
However, I've still got doubts about how much he could have seen of a drop from 4/500ft given the significant blocking by the Cathedral in the direction of the Clutha from that roof. Should also probably note that Govanhill (area of earlier hovering) is to the south on the other side of the Clyde.