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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 23rd Dec 2013, 08:49
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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I'd like to just remind you all that there is no evidence that G-SPAO was preparing to land.

They were just under two miles from base. Over the city Centre. There has been no official release of what the crew were doing there, but to suggest that they were landing is clearly not right.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 09:48
  #1402 (permalink)  
 
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True.

Going back to the SECC in an EC135 along the river from the east (and I have, many many many times over the last few years) I'd still be at 120kts+ at that point.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 10:30
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Floppy

Or hovering, or in an orbit, looking at something that has caught their attention outside the Sheriff Court or St Enoch's.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 18:59
  #1404 (permalink)  
 
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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Fair point. I thought that earlier reports suggested that they had called Glasgow ATC and reported that they were returning to base at Clyde heliport. Has it been confirmed that they were on task in the vicinity of the crash site?
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 19:56
  #1405 (permalink)  

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As a fixed wing jockey I have noticed a wide difference of opinion from the rotor heads here as to what might be regarded as essential actions in the event of various TR failure scenarios.
Problem here is that folk are taking it verbatim that one size fits all. It certainly doesn't and it may also vary from aircraft type to type, to some degree. Anyone believing that a practice "flown" in the simulator can give them all the answers, or a single answer, may be very much misled.

Helicopter simulators are very much reliant on the programmed parameters. Some things experienced in the simulator (which cannot be practiced for real in the aircraft) will be mainly a software programmer's best guess of what might happen.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 20:40
  #1406 (permalink)  

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airpolice
I'd like to just remind you all that there is no evidence that G-SPAO was preparing to land.

They were just under two miles from base. Over the city Centre. There has been no official release of what the crew were doing there, but to suggest that they were landing is clearly not right.
From the AAIB report;
At 2218 hrs, the pilot requested clearance from ATC to re-enter the Glasgow Control Zone and return to GCH; this was approved

I think that based on that call, the probability was that they were indeed preparing to land!


Floppy Link
Going back to the SECC in an EC135 along the river from the east (and I have, many many many times over the last few years) I'd still be at 120kts+ at that point.
2 miles from base, 120kts+, less than a minute to go and you've not yet started to slow down in order to raise the aerial or arm the floats? Really!!!


Of course, we don't know if they were responding to a quick job on the way in, police radio logs should clear that one up, as would the GPS/radar trace.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 20:54
  #1407 (permalink)  
 
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.... which doesn't mean to say that those with a high list count aren't!



toptobottom
Quote:
Haven't there been problems with the EC135 suffering from fuel gauge issues recently? I understood there to have been a number of complaints to EC about this. I appreciate tech logs should show correct uplift/consumption, but it wouldn't be the first time a helicopter had less fuel in it than the PIC thought and if the gauge wasn't reading correctly, it would hide the issue until too late. I believe both engines flamed out when they ran out of fuel before the Low Fuel warning lamp came on.


nice try ttb


Well, let's see then SS...
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 21:20
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The following morning the same model flew at 500ft down the A5

by my flat. As if to say " we`re still here" for the viewers.

Obviously on a normal day it would operate like a bee.

We seem to have moved silently into a Stalinist regime but we pay for it.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 22:23
  #1409 (permalink)  
 
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Clutha benefit CD/ download

Firstly, mods, feel free to move if inappropriately placed or delete if its against forum rules with no hard feelings.

Some of the regular bands have gave their services for this free as a fundraiser to assist the families affected while insurers get their act together, this includes the pilot and crew.

The Clutha Sessions - The Official Clutha Benefit Album

Its available as a cd or download, I'm not personally involved, but am on the fringes of the Glasgow music scene and know the lads have bust a gut and gave a lot of their time to get this out in time.

Thanks for reading.

Again I'm not a journalist or aviation person, have just been trying to assist with local conditions and thought some of the guys may be interested.

Last edited by CJ Romeo; 23rd Dec 2013 at 22:25. Reason: More explanation
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 23:05
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Keep us informed please.
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 06:55
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Just remember there are TWO separate circuits for low fuel warnings and NEITHER has failed during recent testing. They are not suspect.
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 12:15
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There are two engine driven pumps, two prime pumps, two transfer pumps and two non return valves, but the way I see it if one of those valves sticks open on a switched off transfer pump (normal practice), then the other transfer pump will continue circulating fuel back into the main tank instead of the supply tanks. As the transfer pumps warning lights work on amps drawn, it would not illuminate!
Imagine the scenario. Pilot knows how much fuel should be remaining backed up by main tank fuel gauge. If as the AIB suggested there is 95 lt fuel remaining then in the cruise it is likely the rear transfer pump would run light and so be switched off. Forward pump would still be operating normally so no warnings there. But if the aft check valve is stuck open, that fuel is not getting to the supply tanks. Pilot gets low fuel warning but is puzzled because he knows there is fuel in there, he knows his transfer pump is working, does he believe that warning light? First engine flames out. Pilot has 2 or 3 mins to sort this out or land. If he can visualize his fuel system and tanks, he may just pull the nose up and get some fuel over the rear fence, turn on his rear transfer pump, anything to get some fuel in the supply tanks. Pumps cavitating, engine trying to re light.
All conjecture I know, but it's my best guess for a double engine flame out and stopped drive train. Also I do know they were doing extensive fuel system testing on a 135 next to our hanger on Friday!
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 12:47
  #1413 (permalink)  
 
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Two and two make...........
The fault was found on a different aircraft and all this testing would still be happening if there had been NO crash.
It could be linked, but don't be led by a possible separate issue.
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 15:25
  #1414 (permalink)  
 
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then the other transfer pump will continue circulating fuel back into the main tank instead of the supply tanks
via the SUPPLY tank manifold which it has to go through to get to the check valve?

FUEL LOW is on the WARNING panel. It is not a CAUTION. Hence it is a RED light with a gong.
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 16:48
  #1415 (permalink)  
 
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Quote

Michail Kalashnikov - (recently dead inventor of the AK47)

'Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple.'

or

to paraphrase: KISS
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 16:52
  #1416 (permalink)  
 
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'Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple.'
Ipso facto, helicopters are not useful.
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 18:18
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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Lemain, I am coming to the same conclusion. Except one has to accept that in some circumstances helicopters are useful. medevac, probably justifies the use of a complex but versatile aircraft. Just about everything else could be done fixed wing or other modes - always accepting it would be much less convenient! Is there any reason that police cannot use a simple a/c like c337, with a steady cam pod? Or a drone ? If ordnance can be dropped on the Taliban by drones operated by pilots based in Cambridgeshire why do the police need three crew to be airborne? This was a tragic accident but maybe it is time to review what is necessary against what is simply desirable?
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 18:30
  #1418 (permalink)  
 
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What a load of tosh. The police do have aeroplanes, despite being cheaper, they still go for the expensive helicopter. I wonder why? Oh, and planes don't crash of course, or make the crew spew flying round in circles, or make small adjustments to see down the side of sheds, or look straight down when needed, or land and make arrests, or operate away from airfields, or land and pick up casualties when needed, or zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 19:01
  #1419 (permalink)  
 
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So here I am lying in a field having been shot by a simple AK47, don't think I would be too unhappy at the sight of a complex rotary coming to get me! And that comes from a fixed wing Jockey. Horses for courses I say
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Old 24th Dec 2013, 20:02
  #1420 (permalink)  
 
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via the SUPPLY tank manifold which it has to go through to get to the check valve?
Fluid dynamics dictate that a liquid will take the path of least resistance. Uphill to the supply tanks or down hill and through stuck open check valve?
I just can't see why they plumb the two pumps into one supply instead of each pump having a teed supply to each tank.
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