Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
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I'd say, given the circumstances of flying a (very) light single, at night, with limited flying experience, over a very congested area, the pilots were lucky to walk away from that. I also think an organisation who thinks a couple of hundred hours flying experience and an aircraft like that a suitable formula for night police ops is a little misguided. Please tell me things are different 10 years on.
Perhaps the one bonus of all his 497 hours total flying on the one simple type, meant he was ready for such a situation. I remember nights above Belfast always twitching at every unusual vibe or sound.
Perhaps the one bonus of all his 497 hours total flying on the one simple type, meant he was ready for such a situation. I remember nights above Belfast always twitching at every unusual vibe or sound.
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SS
I would agree with what I 'think' is your implication. That the pilot-rated observer did a damned good job. Quite possibly saving both of their lives. I guess it reinforces the idea that, sometimes single pilots of all experience levels are a little more easily overwhelmed than two qualified pilots flying together?
No argument from me there.
Was this pilot-rated observer, a qualified pilot on this type, and operation, but simply working as an observer on this particular flight?
I would agree with what I 'think' is your implication. That the pilot-rated observer did a damned good job. Quite possibly saving both of their lives. I guess it reinforces the idea that, sometimes single pilots of all experience levels are a little more easily overwhelmed than two qualified pilots flying together?
No argument from me there.
Was this pilot-rated observer, a qualified pilot on this type, and operation, but simply working as an observer on this particular flight?
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If it had 2 engines it wouldn't have needed a discussion of how many pilots......so swings and roundabouts, and all very dependent on which bit breaks and who makes what decision at the time. A couple of fatals very recently with 2 pilots and 2 engines and no apparent faults, North Sea and German Police. Could we keep the 2 pilot/2 engines on other threads, along with how to enter auto's.
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Tr, no.
What I am saying is that in my opinion, the pilot was too involved with getting the call out that he had to be reminded to get into autorotation and at the bottom had to be reminded to flare! Also reading the report, he had to told to watch the torque!
What I am saying is that in my opinion, the pilot was too involved with getting the call out that he had to be reminded to get into autorotation and at the bottom had to be reminded to flare! Also reading the report, he had to told to watch the torque!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 15th Mar 2014 at 10:07. Reason: No edit, but just to point out that this post is in reference to the San Antonio video!
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Human factors
Sit in the cockpit and say to yourself: It's all going to turn to custard sometime for sure, is this a good day (night), or have I felt a sharper?
Some days I am relieved the skies are clear and I'm on familiar routes, with fields below. Other times I enjoy the challenge of poor weather and difficult terrain.
Because I am not a professional pilot, I remind myself: This is supposed to be fun, I don't have to go; I can please myself entirely.
I am not suggesting pilots fly when they don't feel up to it, but I wonder if put to the test of a hundred real life-threatening emergencies, how many good pilots would get it right every time.
One thing for sure, you won't kill yourself pontificating on PPRuNe.
Some days I am relieved the skies are clear and I'm on familiar routes, with fields below. Other times I enjoy the challenge of poor weather and difficult terrain.
Because I am not a professional pilot, I remind myself: This is supposed to be fun, I don't have to go; I can please myself entirely.
I am not suggesting pilots fly when they don't feel up to it, but I wonder if put to the test of a hundred real life-threatening emergencies, how many good pilots would get it right every time.
One thing for sure, you won't kill yourself pontificating on PPRuNe.
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Facts generally elude DAPT.
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Over simplified, the collective sets a pitch angle on the MR Blades. Two engines can provide more power than one engine, allowing higher pitch settings.
Do not confuse collective with a throttle, where you have to rev the tits off an engine to provide enough power.
Please don't rip that apart, it is a simplified explanation. Max continuous OEI on this 135 is 86%, max continuous is 2 x 69%.
Do not confuse collective with a throttle, where you have to rev the tits off an engine to provide enough power.
Please don't rip that apart, it is a simplified explanation. Max continuous OEI on this 135 is 86%, max continuous is 2 x 69%.
Avoid imitations
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It has been said before in Glasgow accident one engine quit first so collective was higher when the second engine quit it caused rotor to reach unrecoverable state more rapidly.
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DAPT - you might really say a collective pitch setting that equates to the recommended RRPM OEI for the Ambient temperature and pressure.
Someone else have a go!
Someone else have a go!
Avoid imitations
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Poorly worded I should have said Maximum Pitch for that condition of flight OEI
Sorry, your original statement is totally erroneous.
SASless - Get a life you old codger. Climb down from your own backside and stop bullying anyone who disagrees with you - prat.
Am I the only one who nearly fell off their chair reading this .... From TC !!!!!!!
Priceless . No , I mean REALLY priceless !!!!!
Am I the only one who nearly fell off their chair reading this .... From TC !!!!!!!
Priceless . No , I mean REALLY priceless !!!!!
No Nigel, you are not alone! I don't think he is able to write a post without bullying or name calling, poor lad.
Last edited by 76fan; 15th Mar 2014 at 22:48. Reason: Added reference to refer to his lack of years and experience
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and another good result from OEI in a single over a city:
EXCLUSIVE: Chopper pilot, passenger talk about downtown landing | More Local News - KITV Home
OEI in singles is rare and not that bad, generally.
SS : "he had to be reminded to get into autorotation and at the bottom had to be reminded to flare!" He was reminded doesn't mean he HAD to be reminded.
and : "as they hammer into the ground and skid across the parking lot in a shower of sparks!" actually a good result; hammered gently (survivably), "parking lot" good, etc
good result esp for 400hrs, put a 'super hero' on board and it should have been perfect, no? (wires are difficult to see at night in auto, but again did not result in catastrophie)
EXCLUSIVE: Chopper pilot, passenger talk about downtown landing | More Local News - KITV Home
OEI in singles is rare and not that bad, generally.
SS : "he had to be reminded to get into autorotation and at the bottom had to be reminded to flare!" He was reminded doesn't mean he HAD to be reminded.
and : "as they hammer into the ground and skid across the parking lot in a shower of sparks!" actually a good result; hammered gently (survivably), "parking lot" good, etc
good result esp for 400hrs, put a 'super hero' on board and it should have been perfect, no? (wires are difficult to see at night in auto, but again did not result in catastrophie)
TR,
A question came to mind after reading your posts and those of Anfi's.
I have far more twin time than single....have done the Police thing in both single and twins (if you accept Nuclear Security to be much the same as Police work)....and have had engine failures in both kinds of helicopter.
Very few Police Forces in the USA operate Twins......most rely upon Singles.
Our Police forces also generally promote Police Officers from the Squad Car to the Helicopter job....thus they have experienced Police Officers but in-experienced Pilots. Perhaps that is why the Single Engine helicopter is so common...along with the cost issue.
So...to the question.....Why do you suggest.... "Twins are the very, very least the Public deserve?".
Singles are pretty reliable these days.....and as we have seen....Twins land on top of the "Public" too.
Is there some empirical data somewhere that supports the benefit of the Twin over the Single in Police work?
Understand....I would fly a four engined helicopter if one was made as I like the idea of lots of engines so I am not trying to argue against your view.....just wondering if you are aware of any reliable studies that show the accident rates for Singles are worse than for Twins in Police work?
I will search the ALEA web site to see if they have anything.
The UK Law requires Twins....but the American FAA does not.
That will play a role in what types of aircraft are represented in the studies.
A question came to mind after reading your posts and those of Anfi's.
I have far more twin time than single....have done the Police thing in both single and twins (if you accept Nuclear Security to be much the same as Police work)....and have had engine failures in both kinds of helicopter.
Very few Police Forces in the USA operate Twins......most rely upon Singles.
Our Police forces also generally promote Police Officers from the Squad Car to the Helicopter job....thus they have experienced Police Officers but in-experienced Pilots. Perhaps that is why the Single Engine helicopter is so common...along with the cost issue.
So...to the question.....Why do you suggest.... "Twins are the very, very least the Public deserve?".
Singles are pretty reliable these days.....and as we have seen....Twins land on top of the "Public" too.
Is there some empirical data somewhere that supports the benefit of the Twin over the Single in Police work?
Understand....I would fly a four engined helicopter if one was made as I like the idea of lots of engines so I am not trying to argue against your view.....just wondering if you are aware of any reliable studies that show the accident rates for Singles are worse than for Twins in Police work?
I will search the ALEA web site to see if they have anything.
The UK Law requires Twins....but the American FAA does not.
That will play a role in what types of aircraft are represented in the studies.
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SAS
I too. Have flown police ops in both singles and twins. the single type was SA341G Gazelle. (Though of course I also have the ubiquitous B206 Jetdanger on my licence too.) The twins were BO105 and AS355. I have also flown precisely the same job in both piston and turbine twin engined fixed wing. Though I believe the Optica, in the right hands, would also have been a superb platform.
I too will be absolutely intrigued to see any comparison of accident statistics between FAA regulated police ops, and UK police ops.
Over to you.
I too. Have flown police ops in both singles and twins. the single type was SA341G Gazelle. (Though of course I also have the ubiquitous B206 Jetdanger on my licence too.) The twins were BO105 and AS355. I have also flown precisely the same job in both piston and turbine twin engined fixed wing. Though I believe the Optica, in the right hands, would also have been a superb platform.
I too will be absolutely intrigued to see any comparison of accident statistics between FAA regulated police ops, and UK police ops.
Over to you.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Not knowing the 'culture' up in Glasgow; When faced with the low fuel warnings, then looking at the CAD seeing the fuel in the main tank and not in the supply tanks, while looking for a landing site 'dealing with the situation, could the pilot have asked the front observer to switch on the transfer pumps?
Just another thought
Just another thought