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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 15th Mar 2014, 03:03
  #2681 (permalink)  
 
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Human factors

Sit in the cockpit and say to yourself: It's all going to turn to custard sometime for sure, is this a good day (night), or have I felt a sharper?

Some days I am relieved the skies are clear and I'm on familiar routes, with fields below. Other times I enjoy the challenge of poor weather and difficult terrain.

Because I am not a professional pilot, I remind myself: This is supposed to be fun, I don't have to go; I can please myself entirely.

I am not suggesting pilots fly when they don't feel up to it, but I wonder if put to the test of a hundred real life-threatening emergencies, how many good pilots would get it right every time.

One thing for sure, you won't kill yourself pontificating on PPRuNe.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 03:59
  #2682 (permalink)  
 
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Compressor stalls will wreck the engine instraments, Your ears fill with the noise of cannon fire & all the guage neddles start flappin like humming bird wings.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 09:30
  #2683 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DAPT View Post
...... in Glasgow accident one engine quit first so collective was higher when the second engine quit it caused rotor to reach unrecoverable state more rapidly......
fact / theory check
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:49
  #2684 (permalink)  
 
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@DAPT
In OEI the collective should be lower than in normal AEO conditions.

skadi
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 11:51
  #2685 (permalink)  
 
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Facts generally elude DAPT.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:24
  #2686 (permalink)  
 
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Over simplified, the collective sets a pitch angle on the MR Blades. Two engines can provide more power than one engine, allowing higher pitch settings.
Do not confuse collective with a throttle, where you have to rev the tits off an engine to provide enough power.
Please don't rip that apart, it is a simplified explanation. Max continuous OEI on this 135 is 86%, max continuous is 2 x 69%.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:38
  #2687 (permalink)  

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It has been said before in Glasgow accident one engine quit first so collective was higher when the second engine quit it caused rotor to reach unrecoverable state more rapidly.
DAPT, you're obviously no helicopter pilot. Who told you that load of old hogwash?
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 12:55
  #2688 (permalink)  
 
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Not the 135, this makes your statement of fact somewhat wrong.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:00
  #2689 (permalink)  
 
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DAPT - you might really say a collective pitch setting that equates to the recommended RRPM OEI for the Ambient temperature and pressure.

Someone else have a go!
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 15:49
  #2690 (permalink)  

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Poorly worded I should have said Maximum Pitch for that condition of flight OEI
Which would require a lower collective pitch setting than for AEO flight, not higher. Unless you think that one engine can give more total torque output than two!

Sorry, your original statement is totally erroneous.
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 20:36
  #2691 (permalink)  
 
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SASless - Get a life you old codger. Climb down from your own backside and stop bullying anyone who disagrees with you - prat.

Am I the only one who nearly fell off their chair reading this .... From TC !!!!!!!

Priceless . No , I mean REALLY priceless !!!!!
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 21:17
  #2692 (permalink)  
 
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No Nigel, you are not alone! I don't think he is able to write a post without bullying or name calling, poor lad.

Last edited by 76fan; 15th Mar 2014 at 22:48. Reason: Added reference to refer to his lack of years and experience
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Old 15th Mar 2014, 23:50
  #2693 (permalink)  
 
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and another good result from OEI in a single over a city:

EXCLUSIVE: Chopper pilot, passenger talk about downtown landing | More Local News - KITV Home


OEI in singles is rare and not that bad, generally.


SS : "he had to be reminded to get into autorotation and at the bottom had to be reminded to flare!" He was reminded doesn't mean he HAD to be reminded.

and : "as they hammer into the ground and skid across the parking lot in a shower of sparks!" actually a good result; hammered gently (survivably), "parking lot" good, etc


good result esp for 400hrs, put a 'super hero' on board and it should have been perfect, no? (wires are difficult to see at night in auto, but again did not result in catastrophie)
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Old 17th Mar 2014, 00:20
  #2694 (permalink)  
 
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TR,

A question came to mind after reading your posts and those of Anfi's.

I have far more twin time than single....have done the Police thing in both single and twins (if you accept Nuclear Security to be much the same as Police work)....and have had engine failures in both kinds of helicopter.

Very few Police Forces in the USA operate Twins......most rely upon Singles.

Our Police forces also generally promote Police Officers from the Squad Car to the Helicopter job....thus they have experienced Police Officers but in-experienced Pilots. Perhaps that is why the Single Engine helicopter is so common...along with the cost issue.

So...to the question.....Why do you suggest.... "Twins are the very, very least the Public deserve?".

Singles are pretty reliable these days.....and as we have seen....Twins land on top of the "Public" too.

Is there some empirical data somewhere that supports the benefit of the Twin over the Single in Police work?

Understand....I would fly a four engined helicopter if one was made as I like the idea of lots of engines so I am not trying to argue against your view.....just wondering if you are aware of any reliable studies that show the accident rates for Singles are worse than for Twins in Police work?

I will search the ALEA web site to see if they have anything.

The UK Law requires Twins....but the American FAA does not.

That will play a role in what types of aircraft are represented in the studies.
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Old 17th Mar 2014, 00:29
  #2695 (permalink)  
 
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SAS

I too. Have flown police ops in both singles and twins. the single type was SA341G Gazelle. (Though of course I also have the ubiquitous B206 Jetdanger on my licence too.) The twins were BO105 and AS355. I have also flown precisely the same job in both piston and turbine twin engined fixed wing. Though I believe the Optica, in the right hands, would also have been a superb platform.

I too will be absolutely intrigued to see any comparison of accident statistics between FAA regulated police ops, and UK police ops.

Over to you.
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 11:15
  #2696 (permalink)  

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Not knowing the 'culture' up in Glasgow; When faced with the low fuel warnings, then looking at the CAD seeing the fuel in the main tank and not in the supply tanks, while looking for a landing site 'dealing with the situation, could the pilot have asked the front observer to switch on the transfer pumps?

Just another thought
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Old 19th Mar 2014, 13:22
  #2697 (permalink)  
 
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Two of anything has got to be better/safer than only the one - common sense.
If an ECU is going to fail on any set day/night in the future, then it is more likely to result in serious damage/death over a built up area, in a single than if it happened on a twin.
During my time with police ops I lost an engine on two occasions - one during the day where a compressor blade went walkabout and the other engine failure was a surge at night. Both of these incidents were over built up towns/cities. Both resulted in a fairly undramatic landing around the outskirts to resolve the problem. A single would have put a whole new perspective on matters!!!

PS: How on earth can one compare Police Helo Ops with " Nuclear Security" whatever that is???
Sasless has me on Peanut Gallery alert so can someone else ask him what a typical task is during a Nuclear Security job?????
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Old 23rd Mar 2014, 22:22
  #2698 (permalink)  
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The circular discussions of twin vs singles has been moved to Where does the UK/JAR "twin only" mentality come from?

Let's keep this thread on topic, please!
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 01:30
  #2699 (permalink)  
 
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Tandem,

That will be a very short conversation you will have about CAA and FAA regulated Police Operations as the FAA considers Police Ops to be "Public Use" and they have next to nothing to do with overseeing such operations. I reckon that would be an Apples and Oranges comparison and of not much use in wasting time on.

Would not a better question be one that argues about why you contract helicopter services and not have the Police operate the aircraft themselves?

New York City clear across to Los Angeles my country is populated with dozens and dozens of Police Helicopter Operations and almost all use Single Engined Helicopters exclusively for Day and Night flying.

I guess we hear all about how perfect the English system is compared to the Yanks but y'all go ahead on and try to convince us of that.
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Old 24th Mar 2014, 08:13
  #2700 (permalink)  

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Boudreaux, I don't think any Brit would claim our system of police aviation is perfect. Have you not read the NPAS thread?

UKs police helicopters now operate under a national system, which was claimed to be more efficient and save money. One of those claims might be true, possibly not in the long run, but having fewer assets more widely spaced won't fool many that it can be more efficient.
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