Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
Art,
I can confirm that it is not unknown for "Police Management" to discourage the use of, particularly large, civil airfields. In a past incident where we had to refuel at a large but not particularly busy airport in the "North of England", the unit was billed almost twice as much for the associated fees than we were for the 250 litres of fuel that we uplifted - which included Navigation fees, "Runway Fees", Handling fees, Landing fees and Parking fees. We've not been inclined to lift fuel from there since.
I can confirm that it is not unknown for "Police Management" to discourage the use of, particularly large, civil airfields. In a past incident where we had to refuel at a large but not particularly busy airport in the "North of England", the unit was billed almost twice as much for the associated fees than we were for the 250 litres of fuel that we uplifted - which included Navigation fees, "Runway Fees", Handling fees, Landing fees and Parking fees. We've not been inclined to lift fuel from there since.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
40, they can discourage it as much as they like, but haven't they also said "Safety is the number one priority for the National Police Air Service (NPAS)"!
Given the choice of a small private airfield with limited amounts of Jet A1 and a large commercial airfield using vast quantities of Jet A1, despite the potential longer waiting time at the larger and the better brew and snack at the smaller one, I would have thought safety, for many different reasons, would choose the larger. Besides at 4am, in the middle of ruralshire, "where is the nearest fuel" is usually the thought in my mind, not "where's the cheapest"!
Of course this also depends on the circumstances and choices available and I'd hate to think that a crew was given the pressure when pushed for fuel to make a smaller airfield rather than a large commercial one just for the sake of the price of a few subsidised HQ lunches!!!
Given the choice of a small private airfield with limited amounts of Jet A1 and a large commercial airfield using vast quantities of Jet A1, despite the potential longer waiting time at the larger and the better brew and snack at the smaller one, I would have thought safety, for many different reasons, would choose the larger. Besides at 4am, in the middle of ruralshire, "where is the nearest fuel" is usually the thought in my mind, not "where's the cheapest"!
Of course this also depends on the circumstances and choices available and I'd hate to think that a crew was given the pressure when pushed for fuel to make a smaller airfield rather than a large commercial one just for the sake of the price of a few subsidised HQ lunches!!!
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Fortyodd,
Thanks, what I'm trying to convey to those outside the UK police flying environment who are asking questions in this thread, is the often conflicting considerations that the crew has to take during the shift due to the nature of the service and at times the limited infrastructure to carry out the task in a money restricted era. As you know more than most, what appears a simple, why don't they just do 'A' is too often blocked by all the other considerations outside the task in hand.
14 years ago I was asking if it was possible for all county police HQs that didn't have an asu to have a cloudbase recorder on the roof and a drum stock of fuel and pump, to my simple mind a low cost but comprehensive safety net. Not a chance was the answer, and that hasn't changed much (though KENT was an exception with the excellent facility at Rochester).
Thanks, what I'm trying to convey to those outside the UK police flying environment who are asking questions in this thread, is the often conflicting considerations that the crew has to take during the shift due to the nature of the service and at times the limited infrastructure to carry out the task in a money restricted era. As you know more than most, what appears a simple, why don't they just do 'A' is too often blocked by all the other considerations outside the task in hand.
14 years ago I was asking if it was possible for all county police HQs that didn't have an asu to have a cloudbase recorder on the roof and a drum stock of fuel and pump, to my simple mind a low cost but comprehensive safety net. Not a chance was the answer, and that hasn't changed much (though KENT was an exception with the excellent facility at Rochester).
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Sid,
Couldn't agree more....when pushed for fuel just get it if available and answer questions about the cost later. Sycamore seemed to suggest it was as easy as just dropping in during any flight to top up just in case.
I remember the UEO at one unit specifically notifying us not to uplift more fuel than absolutely neccessary for the trip back to base from our next nearest supply of fuel because of the price.
Couldn't agree more....when pushed for fuel just get it if available and answer questions about the cost later. Sycamore seemed to suggest it was as easy as just dropping in during any flight to top up just in case.
I remember the UEO at one unit specifically notifying us not to uplift more fuel than absolutely neccessary for the trip back to base from our next nearest supply of fuel because of the price.
I have never yet, in 14 years had a TFO accept tasking whilst airborne without asking first. It was one of the main reasons that it was decided to use pilots that were not police officers in UK police aviation
So the TFOs are basically guests, that my ask for a flight target, but should be used to hear "nope, would probably violate our min. fuel after landing rule".Speaking of which, what does that actually mean (for the given EC135) with regard to fuel in kg at final landing:
‘Company Fuel Policy
Company helicopters are operated under a principal of Minimum Land on
Allowance (MLA), this figure is the minimum amount of total fuel at the point of
landing.
clear, so far.
It is calculated as fuel remaining, not more than 10 minutes after the ... FUEL
caption (EC135) has illuminated..... and is included in the Final Reserve Fuel
amount.
"10 mins. afer FUEL caption lit" is a rel. fixed number characteristic of the EC135 at typ. GW. It cannot be defined in an OPM.
Does that mean: you may fly as long as you need to, IF the fuel at final landing is not less then what would be there 10 mins. after the light comes on?
Would above be the same as saying "be landed max. 10 mins after said light comes on"? How does the final reserve limit factor in?
And finally, with what endurance calculation (rates, gauges,..) would the pilot arrive at the decision to deny a requested task?
Reely,
The TFO's, legally, are passengers. To me, as a police pilot, they are definitely crew - if they are not in the aircraft, there is not much point me going anywhere.
The "Tasking" comes from the police control rooms/NPAS dispatch. Any task given has to be achievable and a good use of the resource. As a pilot, I can only refuse a task based on the serviceability of the aircraft, the weather limitations and the abilities/capabilities/legalities of the aircraft and it's crew. Whether or not I think its a pointless exercise or waste of time and/or resources, it is up to the TFO's to use their knowledge and experience to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Achievable also means, can we get there, devote a reasonable time to the task and then get back to fuel? I tend to fly around with Base as an active waypoint on one of the GPS's so I always have an indication of distance to travel and then use 3 kgs per min to plan on.
As for your question about the "company policy", ask the company.
The TFO's, legally, are passengers. To me, as a police pilot, they are definitely crew - if they are not in the aircraft, there is not much point me going anywhere.
The "Tasking" comes from the police control rooms/NPAS dispatch. Any task given has to be achievable and a good use of the resource. As a pilot, I can only refuse a task based on the serviceability of the aircraft, the weather limitations and the abilities/capabilities/legalities of the aircraft and it's crew. Whether or not I think its a pointless exercise or waste of time and/or resources, it is up to the TFO's to use their knowledge and experience to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Achievable also means, can we get there, devote a reasonable time to the task and then get back to fuel? I tend to fly around with Base as an active waypoint on one of the GPS's so I always have an indication of distance to travel and then use 3 kgs per min to plan on.
As for your question about the "company policy", ask the company.
we had to refuel at a large but not particularly busy airport in the "North of England", the unit was billed almost twice as much for the associated fees than we were for the 250 litres of fuel that we uplifted - which included Navigation fees, "Runway Fees", Handling fees, Landing fees and Parking fees. We've not been inclined to lift fuel from there since.
In my part of the Aviation world, the government and even the Operators will install AWOS type weather systems and arrange for "On-Call" fuel if there are no Self Serve facilities available. Also....we don't ban aircraft from landing if the Airport is "Closed"....as we understand the concept of Pilot Controlled Lighting and CTAF Radio calls when operating from an Airport with no Operating Control Tower.
We see On Airport Fire Service coverage as a good thing to have....but not a necessity for Air Operations such as the Police or Private flight operations.
HC, I'll mark my calendar, but I also appreciate the fiscal constraints that a police organization has in terms of running an expensive asset like a helicopter.
Our local law enforcement organization let go of theirs a few years ago. Could not afford it. (They want to use drones now ... which isn't going over too well with some of the locals).
Our local law enforcement organization let go of theirs a few years ago. Could not afford it. (They want to use drones now ... which isn't going over too well with some of the locals).
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The Special Bulletin made reference to an error report within the cockpit display. Perhaps I might contribute a comment here, though surrounded by many ifs and mays.
Although FDR and CDR, known to the general public as Black Boxes, are not required items and were not fitted, use was made of maintenance logging within the other black boxes which make up the aircraft thinking apparatus.
This logging is intended purely for routine maintenance and might for example include a note that an engine has been used at 110 percent full power, or a landing gear oleo has suffered unusually high pressure, or a voltage is out of tolerance, or two identical fail-safe channels have disagreed by more than a certain percentage.
After a flight or number of flights these notes are downloaded and are used to assess what items have suffered stress or are out of limits and need maintenance.
In this incident the maintenance information has been very useful in finding out what has happened, though not exactly when it happened.
One item mentioned in the bulletin was a report from the display unit. The meaning of this report is not yet known. It does not necessarily mean that the display or any part of it was faulty, but simply that there was something out of spec, a voltage, a current, a data error, a disagreement between two otherwise perfectly functioning channels, or whatever. It could be a major fault, but equally it could be a very minor issue requiring some small item to be adjusted.
I guess I haven't added a whole lot of clarity here, but I'm an avionics guy and we never do. Hope this is helpful in some small way.
Although FDR and CDR, known to the general public as Black Boxes, are not required items and were not fitted, use was made of maintenance logging within the other black boxes which make up the aircraft thinking apparatus.
This logging is intended purely for routine maintenance and might for example include a note that an engine has been used at 110 percent full power, or a landing gear oleo has suffered unusually high pressure, or a voltage is out of tolerance, or two identical fail-safe channels have disagreed by more than a certain percentage.
After a flight or number of flights these notes are downloaded and are used to assess what items have suffered stress or are out of limits and need maintenance.
In this incident the maintenance information has been very useful in finding out what has happened, though not exactly when it happened.
One item mentioned in the bulletin was a report from the display unit. The meaning of this report is not yet known. It does not necessarily mean that the display or any part of it was faulty, but simply that there was something out of spec, a voltage, a current, a data error, a disagreement between two otherwise perfectly functioning channels, or whatever. It could be a major fault, but equally it could be a very minor issue requiring some small item to be adjusted.
I guess I haven't added a whole lot of clarity here, but I'm an avionics guy and we never do. Hope this is helpful in some small way.
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the Scottish Police Crash in Nov.
From what I am hearing about what sounds the Helicopter was making, I wonder if the pilot had demanded to much power to quickly and BOTH engines compressors stalled. This would produce the loud "popping" or "gunfire noise"
HC,
We see the Aviation Infrastructure as benefiting the traveling public, fostering commerce, and a function of government just as roads, highways, bridges and the like. Thus, the vast majority of the money paying for this infrastructure is Tax Money taken from various sources but in the end....comes from General Tax Revenues coming from all of us....and not just the actual users of the services (Airlines, Charter Operations, Private Owners).
There is a move afoot to change that but so far has died a death before being seriously considered by the thieving rascals in Congress.
I too shall place a big mark on the Calendar.....and pray your conversion to candor shall continue in the future.
We see the Aviation Infrastructure as benefiting the traveling public, fostering commerce, and a function of government just as roads, highways, bridges and the like. Thus, the vast majority of the money paying for this infrastructure is Tax Money taken from various sources but in the end....comes from General Tax Revenues coming from all of us....and not just the actual users of the services (Airlines, Charter Operations, Private Owners).
There is a move afoot to change that but so far has died a death before being seriously considered by the thieving rascals in Congress.
I too shall place a big mark on the Calendar.....and pray your conversion to candor shall continue in the future.
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Codeen:
The whole matter of "witness reports" has to be taken with reservations, as most observers AT NIGHT will have difficulty in accurately describing a rapidly changing, and rapidly occurring, event.
Consider this: stalling rotor blades can also make a popping sound.
Fuel System
The helicopter’s fuel tank group was drained and the contents were measured immediately after it was extracted from the building. It was found that the main fuel tank contained 76 kg of fuel, whilst the No 1 supply tank (left) contained 0.4 kg of fuel and the No 2 supply tank (right) was empty. It has also been confirmed, by examination and measurement of the internal design features, that this was the fuel disposition at the time of the accident. That is; fuel had not moved within the tank group whilst the helicopter was at rest in the building.
The helicopter’s fuel tank group was drained and the contents were measured immediately after it was extracted from the building. It was found that the main fuel tank contained 76 kg of fuel, whilst the No 1 supply tank (left) contained 0.4 kg of fuel and the No 2 supply tank (right) was empty. It has also been confirmed, by examination and measurement of the internal design features, that this was the fuel disposition at the time of the accident. That is; fuel had not moved within the tank group whilst the helicopter was at rest in the building.
Consider this: stalling rotor blades can also make a popping sound.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 20th Feb 2014 at 13:03.
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For a wee bit of background, this machine was operated on behalf of Strathclyde Police and was basically dedicated to the West and part of Central Scotland. At Uni we done the financial case for the first machine they leased, as it was a (depreciation calculation) cock up, but I remember clearly the territorial scope.
The other Scots forces were pretty small (Strathclyde was second only to the met) and never had air support.
In April 2013 the forces merged into 'Police Scotland' and I assume overnight that the machine started being dispatched all over the place - including Dalkeith.
I don't really know, but all of a sudden having a bigger territory and potentially (just a guess) no plans for fuel pick ups East / South / North of the notional base is perhaps a factor relatively new to its operation, albeit the air ambulance operated by Bond from the same base always had a wide territory
That's not to say that other forces may have requested air support in the past, but I would have thought that this would only have been for more serious issues.
Hopefully this answers some of the 'fuel base' queries, though as I understand it wasn't the lack of fuel on board that was the issue, just its location.
The other Scots forces were pretty small (Strathclyde was second only to the met) and never had air support.
In April 2013 the forces merged into 'Police Scotland' and I assume overnight that the machine started being dispatched all over the place - including Dalkeith.
I don't really know, but all of a sudden having a bigger territory and potentially (just a guess) no plans for fuel pick ups East / South / North of the notional base is perhaps a factor relatively new to its operation, albeit the air ambulance operated by Bond from the same base always had a wide territory
That's not to say that other forces may have requested air support in the past, but I would have thought that this would only have been for more serious issues.
Hopefully this answers some of the 'fuel base' queries, though as I understand it wasn't the lack of fuel on board that was the issue, just its location.
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Really? Now we are delving into the depths of irrelevant and nonsensical speculation which threatens to derail this thread and the professional input of those who have taken a lot of time and trouble to explain the EC135 and police operations.
Please, if you haven't anything sensible to contribute: don't post!
Please, if you haven't anything sensible to contribute: don't post!
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CJ
"I don't really know, but all of a sudden having a bigger territory and potentially (just a guess) no plans for fuel pick ups East / South / North of the notional base is perhaps a factor relatively new to its operation, albeit the air ambulance operated by Bond from the same base always had a wide territory"
The air ambulance is mainly operated during daylight hours to call outs, though transfers take place during the hours of darkness (mainly SAR territory), so the 'net' of fuel stops at night in Scotland will not have developed much if at all beyond the airfields that have regular profit making hours.
UK police aviation has developed rapidly in the last 20 years (and declined in the last 2), but it really has struggled to afford any sort of joined up infrastructure beyond it's own bases, and only very recently become joined up at all. It will get better in future if funding is not cut further and the more enlightened learn lessons from the past and steer the future.
"I don't really know, but all of a sudden having a bigger territory and potentially (just a guess) no plans for fuel pick ups East / South / North of the notional base is perhaps a factor relatively new to its operation, albeit the air ambulance operated by Bond from the same base always had a wide territory"
The air ambulance is mainly operated during daylight hours to call outs, though transfers take place during the hours of darkness (mainly SAR territory), so the 'net' of fuel stops at night in Scotland will not have developed much if at all beyond the airfields that have regular profit making hours.
UK police aviation has developed rapidly in the last 20 years (and declined in the last 2), but it really has struggled to afford any sort of joined up infrastructure beyond it's own bases, and only very recently become joined up at all. It will get better in future if funding is not cut further and the more enlightened learn lessons from the past and steer the future.