UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
6 Posts
Cabby, we have never done down to the ground in current types. It isn't 135 specific!! The SIM does a great job thanks, when we screw up, it is much cheaper too
Do you actually understand what down to the ground means??
Do you actually understand what down to the ground means??
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 69
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I do thanks, and thinking of what happened over Glasgow I did wonder about the relevance of the Airbus news article (vibrations and cracks).
Do all NPAS pilots now carry out SIM training? or is it still a case of a TRE sitting alongside at each unit and flying away at the bottom of the auto from 2000ft?
Why do the CAA approved TRE's carry out the police auto's from 2000ft or higher at the airfield I'm at, when most police a/c operate at 500ft or lower during the day?
Why don't they do it from 600ft at night which is the normal heights the police tend to operate at.
When is the AAIB due on the Glasgow Police 135 crash, December?
Is there any news regarding any type of real time monitoring/recording equipment for the EC135 or MD902 or black boxes prior to the report?
I'm aware of the other thread but the Flight Global article did make me wonder if there was any news on why the Glasgow Police a/c crashed and it didn't make a successful auto - to the ground?
Do all NPAS pilots now carry out SIM training? or is it still a case of a TRE sitting alongside at each unit and flying away at the bottom of the auto from 2000ft?
Why do the CAA approved TRE's carry out the police auto's from 2000ft or higher at the airfield I'm at, when most police a/c operate at 500ft or lower during the day?
Why don't they do it from 600ft at night which is the normal heights the police tend to operate at.
When is the AAIB due on the Glasgow Police 135 crash, December?
Is there any news regarding any type of real time monitoring/recording equipment for the EC135 or MD902 or black boxes prior to the report?
I'm aware of the other thread but the Flight Global article did make me wonder if there was any news on why the Glasgow Police a/c crashed and it didn't make a successful auto - to the ground?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Cabby
Cabby, do you 'fly police' or just not very good at estimating height?
Why do the CAA approved TRE's carry out the police auto's from 2000ft or higher at the airfield I'm at, when most police a/c operate at 500ft or lower during the day?
Why don't they do it from 600ft at night which is the normal heights the police tend to operate at.
Why don't they do it from 600ft at night which is the normal heights the police tend to operate at.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cabby - Some of your posts cause my jaw to drop!
40 Odd has a good point, there's an excellent training facility, owned by a different organisation, so NPAS would have to pay . . . which probably causes a problem! This is despite a number of forces/ASUs having written business cases some years ago to show that the cost of sending pilots to complete instrument and emergency training, on a decent simulator, paid for itself in reduced aircraft training hours as well as operational downtime. In addition, significantly better and more realistic training was achieved than can generally be accomplished in the real thing, certainly for the more obscure malfunctions.
On the subject of aircraft types & down-to-ground autos - in many years of flying twin engined helos, I've NEVER heard of any organisation mad enough to risk taking a twin engined helo down to the ground in full auto - the risks of doing it on a regular basis are astronomical. That's the whole point of a twin engined machine anyway - the second engine just takes you to the scene of a possibly more stressful landing than usual! If you fly twins for long enough, you have two modes - the twin mode & the OEI mode. The latter is the same as flying a single, i.e. you're always keeping an eye out for a place to land in extremis. The important thing is to realise the difference between modes and to be able to switch immediately after losing the first engine.
The more experienced a pilot becomes on twins, the greater the need to look in the mirror & remind themselves that they only fly a single with the safety net of a spare engine - it's a reminder that, if forgotten, could prove fatal, I'd suggest.
Another problem with down-to-ground autos in a twin is that the rotor systems are optimised, by design, for powered flight, which generally results in a more lively head (certainly in more modern designs) & requires very careful Nr management in auto. Practising autos, therefore, comes with a very high risk of overspeeding the head, amongst other problems - hence owners of all such types NOT practising real autos.
Singles are designed to have a rotor system that acts as the second engine in a twin - i.e. some element of control while you land in more stressful circumstances. To offset the increased stress, manufacturers design a head that's generally a little easier to control in auto.
I'd suggest you need to polish your height estimation skills if you think Police are foolish enough to grub around @ 5/600' by day/night. There always remains a need to consider the vast majority of the population, who are not lost or committing mischief, and let them get on with their lives while trying to police the minority, whilst making a horrible noise (to many ears!). In addition, the cameras often work better with a bit more height.
40 Odd has a good point, there's an excellent training facility, owned by a different organisation, so NPAS would have to pay . . . which probably causes a problem! This is despite a number of forces/ASUs having written business cases some years ago to show that the cost of sending pilots to complete instrument and emergency training, on a decent simulator, paid for itself in reduced aircraft training hours as well as operational downtime. In addition, significantly better and more realistic training was achieved than can generally be accomplished in the real thing, certainly for the more obscure malfunctions.
On the subject of aircraft types & down-to-ground autos - in many years of flying twin engined helos, I've NEVER heard of any organisation mad enough to risk taking a twin engined helo down to the ground in full auto - the risks of doing it on a regular basis are astronomical. That's the whole point of a twin engined machine anyway - the second engine just takes you to the scene of a possibly more stressful landing than usual! If you fly twins for long enough, you have two modes - the twin mode & the OEI mode. The latter is the same as flying a single, i.e. you're always keeping an eye out for a place to land in extremis. The important thing is to realise the difference between modes and to be able to switch immediately after losing the first engine.
The more experienced a pilot becomes on twins, the greater the need to look in the mirror & remind themselves that they only fly a single with the safety net of a spare engine - it's a reminder that, if forgotten, could prove fatal, I'd suggest.
Another problem with down-to-ground autos in a twin is that the rotor systems are optimised, by design, for powered flight, which generally results in a more lively head (certainly in more modern designs) & requires very careful Nr management in auto. Practising autos, therefore, comes with a very high risk of overspeeding the head, amongst other problems - hence owners of all such types NOT practising real autos.
Singles are designed to have a rotor system that acts as the second engine in a twin - i.e. some element of control while you land in more stressful circumstances. To offset the increased stress, manufacturers design a head that's generally a little easier to control in auto.
I'd suggest you need to polish your height estimation skills if you think Police are foolish enough to grub around @ 5/600' by day/night. There always remains a need to consider the vast majority of the population, who are not lost or committing mischief, and let them get on with their lives while trying to police the minority, whilst making a horrible noise (to many ears!). In addition, the cameras often work better with a bit more height.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mister b - You are correct, I think, although those designs would be an example of a single with an extra engine added, almost as an after-thought, but to meet a requirement relatively cheaply.
As mentioned, I was really referring to more recent designs, i.e. 1990's or later, where the benefits of significant rotor development & understanding have been seen.
I think you'll find that the Seaking would not be considered as "optimised" for powered flight, as rotor design has come on a long way since the Queen of the Skies was originally designed!
The Lynx, however, would be an example of an upgrade in rotor design that improved powered efficiency but, if I understand it correctly, made autos a little more interesting . . . though still not practised to the ground.
As mentioned, I was really referring to more recent designs, i.e. 1990's or later, where the benefits of significant rotor development & understanding have been seen.
I think you'll find that the Seaking would not be considered as "optimised" for powered flight, as rotor design has come on a long way since the Queen of the Skies was originally designed!
The Lynx, however, would be an example of an upgrade in rotor design that improved powered efficiency but, if I understand it correctly, made autos a little more interesting . . . though still not practised to the ground.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
6 Posts
In another life, I was a CFS instructor and carried out a humongous amount of EOLs. We also taught instructors how to get out of mishandled autos. Experienced pilots often made the biggest mistakes that tested those skills to the limit. THAT is why we should not do full EOLs in expensive police/AA helicopters, we would end up bending them. Remember that a successful real EOL is one that the crew survive, even with a trashed helicopter.
I use "that" simulator every 6 months and can say with confidence that it is very realistic for autos and emergency training. It is cheaper than the aircraft I believe.
As for the 500-600' comments, well........... The TFOs said that I flew lower than most pilots, but 5-600 were certainly not my normal heights. The spotterscope worked best around 900-1000'.
I use "that" simulator every 6 months and can say with confidence that it is very realistic for autos and emergency training. It is cheaper than the aircraft I believe.
As for the 500-600' comments, well........... The TFOs said that I flew lower than most pilots, but 5-600 were certainly not my normal heights. The spotterscope worked best around 900-1000'.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 47
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The simulator jayteeto refers to is half of what the aircraft costs per flying hour, just to add some realism to this debate......
With the new cameras there is no need to operate below 1000' Agl....I don't think there are no old ones left.
With the new cameras there is no need to operate below 1000' Agl....I don't think there are no old ones left.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
While we wait for the NPAS annual report to come out, how about this?
http://www.ukcivilairpatrol.co.uk/ws...14rev1_opt.pdf
If air support for forces is going to cost £1600 per hour, could the Civil Air Patrol provide a more cost effective service?
http://www.ukcivilairpatrol.co.uk/ws...14rev1_opt.pdf
If air support for forces is going to cost £1600 per hour, could the Civil Air Patrol provide a more cost effective service?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Only 7 'working days' to go until NPASLondon day
I know it was a few years ago, but did Victoria get an answer?
http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/the-met-...-under-threat/
I know it was a few years ago, but did Victoria get an answer?
http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/the-met-...-under-threat/
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Nail The Dream;
I imagine she got her answer a couple of years ago
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy !
I imagine she got her answer a couple of years ago
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy !
)Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Future PNAS display team?
Surely not, there's too many of them
Surely not, there's too many of them
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
I imagine she got her answer a couple of years ago
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy !
Nail
when Boris appointed her as his Deputy !
Nail
