Westland Scout research
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Steep!
Wow,
That is an interesting angle for descending...... is there any view on why it was such a test for auto's? Given one is having a go at a scale model, perhaps the same will be true for it!
Cheers,
Gaz
PS Absolutely convinced that the Blue Peter presenter was in a Scout and made loud scared noises, and not a figment of my imagination having just seen this!
That is an interesting angle for descending...... is there any view on why it was such a test for auto's? Given one is having a go at a scale model, perhaps the same will be true for it!
Cheers,
Gaz
PS Absolutely convinced that the Blue Peter presenter was in a Scout and made loud scared noises, and not a figment of my imagination having just seen this!
That's the best Scout EOL I have ever seen, perfectly executed by 2 Royal Navy TPs. The coning angle at the end gives away the clue that every ounce of inertia was used and I guess (shortish run on) into a decent breeze. Cracking video.
Last edited by MOSTAFA; 10th Sep 2013 at 16:17.
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Please sir more!
Are there other such videos, found a few on YouTube but none so informative but a lot of fun like balancing on the c of g on a wall!
Gaz
Gaz
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Mechanical info....
Folks,
If anyone has any information ora pictures/schematics or the like I would be grateful to see them.
One thing I am really keen to see is the mast mechanism under the cover. I am looking at what I think are the pitch contro levers and wondering how mechanically efficient they are as the principle of leverage seems to not be in their favour. I may of course be viewing something else hence the hope to find some info, perhaps maintenance or flight manuals.
Thanks again, literally just have to get this project off the ground!
Regards,
Gaz
If anyone has any information ora pictures/schematics or the like I would be grateful to see them.
One thing I am really keen to see is the mast mechanism under the cover. I am looking at what I think are the pitch contro levers and wondering how mechanically efficient they are as the principle of leverage seems to not be in their favour. I may of course be viewing something else hence the hope to find some info, perhaps maintenance or flight manuals.
Thanks again, literally just have to get this project off the ground!
Regards,
Gaz
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Very helpful indeed thanks
Thanks Savoia,
Those are the best close ups I have seen so far and give me some thoughts, and Ideas. On the last one where the gaiter has come free, I am particularly interested to see what it is attached to and the control mechanism for it, under the hood as it were.
I may be oversimplifying it, but am assuming that as those levers are attached to a C shaped control arm, then by raising or lowering these levers singularly or in combination, causes the necessary change in blade pitch during rotation to angle the rotor disc and therefore change the direction/lift of the heli.
I am keen to see under the skin how that works, it may not be possible or appropriate to completely replicate in the model as doubtless these systems were controlled hydraulically and I will be using an electric digital servo which are very powerful, have high resolution and are reasonably fast.
I am also intrigued about the rotor head and the various mechanisms on there, the autorotation video you kindly put up shows a couple of weights (which you can see on these stills) rotating outwards, and then whilst still rotating closing to the main shaft.
I'd be really interested in any explanation of the components above my simplistic understanding.
When you see a picture this close, and see that the blades are being held by two admittedly well manufactured and quality controlled pins, it is quite awesome to understand the forces and stresses that may be apparent but are effectively the main reason you are in the air!!!
On models, the relative strengths are much much higher as mass is lower, energy is lower but the tensile strength of the materials remain the same. It always reminds my of my physics teacher explaining how molecules relative strength is at its' peak when you try and pull it apart...... thank goodness!! Additionally the swash plate is a simple mechanism, practically a bearing mounted on the main shaft encapsulated by a disc with ball link connections from the servo and linkage and another encapsulated bearing with ball links to the rotor blade grips, as you hopefully can see in the attached picture.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r3r2hffdkizwc4k/wBlFOZD3KP
(ignore the cowl, being prepped for glassfibre moulding practice!)
I really appreciate all your input, you clearly are an expert in the Scout and it is so helpful!
Thanks,
Gaz
PS Is there any easier way to display pictures?
Those are the best close ups I have seen so far and give me some thoughts, and Ideas. On the last one where the gaiter has come free, I am particularly interested to see what it is attached to and the control mechanism for it, under the hood as it were.
I may be oversimplifying it, but am assuming that as those levers are attached to a C shaped control arm, then by raising or lowering these levers singularly or in combination, causes the necessary change in blade pitch during rotation to angle the rotor disc and therefore change the direction/lift of the heli.
I am keen to see under the skin how that works, it may not be possible or appropriate to completely replicate in the model as doubtless these systems were controlled hydraulically and I will be using an electric digital servo which are very powerful, have high resolution and are reasonably fast.
I am also intrigued about the rotor head and the various mechanisms on there, the autorotation video you kindly put up shows a couple of weights (which you can see on these stills) rotating outwards, and then whilst still rotating closing to the main shaft.
I'd be really interested in any explanation of the components above my simplistic understanding.
When you see a picture this close, and see that the blades are being held by two admittedly well manufactured and quality controlled pins, it is quite awesome to understand the forces and stresses that may be apparent but are effectively the main reason you are in the air!!!
On models, the relative strengths are much much higher as mass is lower, energy is lower but the tensile strength of the materials remain the same. It always reminds my of my physics teacher explaining how molecules relative strength is at its' peak when you try and pull it apart...... thank goodness!! Additionally the swash plate is a simple mechanism, practically a bearing mounted on the main shaft encapsulated by a disc with ball link connections from the servo and linkage and another encapsulated bearing with ball links to the rotor blade grips, as you hopefully can see in the attached picture.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r3r2hffdkizwc4k/wBlFOZD3KP
(ignore the cowl, being prepped for glassfibre moulding practice!)
I really appreciate all your input, you clearly are an expert in the Scout and it is so helpful!
Thanks,
Gaz
PS Is there any easier way to display pictures?
.. you clearly are an expert in the Scout ..
But, as mentioned, my late godfather was test pilot on the Saunders-Roe P531 which served as the prototype to the Scout and, spurred by his numerous recollections, I have maintained an informal interest in the types he flew .. and many others besides.
What you really need is input from a former Scout engineer, perhaps Icy Waters aka PPRuNer helimarshaller
and there may be others besides?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Gazzer,
I have a Scout AH1 Flight Manual and set of FRC's which may be of interest to you. We're in the same county, making it easy to get them to you once I dig them out. I'll PM you once they've been located.
I have a Scout AH1 Flight Manual and set of FRC's which may be of interest to you. We're in the same county, making it easy to get them to you once I dig them out. I'll PM you once they've been located.
Gazzer, I have everything you need with access to airframes, aircrew manuals and engineering manuals. You can talk freely to me or the engineers and take whatever copies you wish. You know who I am and no doubt now others will have worked out who I am.
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Spoilt rotten!!!
Gents,
I am humbled.
Silsoe, I would love to get a copy of those manuals, many thanks indeed. Being that it is a small county happy to travel and cross your palms with legal tender or bottled ferment as appropriate, and appreciate that they would be on loan. I am equidistant betwixt Banbury and Coventry.
Sloppy,
You are a true gent, perhaps I could arrange a visit when convenient? I'd be happy to share some stories as hinted in our PM's! I would certainly relish the engineers discussion.
It matters to me the principles of how the Scout was engineered, the reality in model terms to get to that level of operating detail is circumspect. That said..... the modern materials and manufacturing capabilities with 3 axis CNC, 3D printing and the like make replication much easier, but in scaling down, it doesn't always work to advantage. The turbine is a good example, the only functional design is more akin to the Whittle design with centrifugal action as opposed to axial. There are axial engines, but nothing yet off the shelf. The kind of turbine that will drive this used to need propane to start, so that the combustion chamber was hot enough to burn the kerosene, though now they have overcome that. All said, the molecule size is the same for model or full size as are the temperatures which mean vaporizing the fuel is tougher in the model as is heat dissipation with much smaller surface areas.
But that is where the challenge lies. Please also tell me if I am banging on too much. My life's regret is not to push myself when younger, physically and mentally. I know not whether I could have made it as a heli pilot, but I never made the chance or opportunity, this is as close as I can get and is a passion but one of which I wish not to bore you about!
I reckon we are looking at rotor diameter of about 2.4 metres when built, which is pretty large, so ought have some presence in the air and be large enough to detail in great accuracy.
First though the research, and then in tandem the mechanical development and the fuselage components.... better start loosening up my sanding arm!
Thank you again everyone, this is all really, really helpful and fascinating to boot.
Cheers,
Gaz
I am humbled.
Silsoe, I would love to get a copy of those manuals, many thanks indeed. Being that it is a small county happy to travel and cross your palms with legal tender or bottled ferment as appropriate, and appreciate that they would be on loan. I am equidistant betwixt Banbury and Coventry.
Sloppy,
You are a true gent, perhaps I could arrange a visit when convenient? I'd be happy to share some stories as hinted in our PM's! I would certainly relish the engineers discussion.
It matters to me the principles of how the Scout was engineered, the reality in model terms to get to that level of operating detail is circumspect. That said..... the modern materials and manufacturing capabilities with 3 axis CNC, 3D printing and the like make replication much easier, but in scaling down, it doesn't always work to advantage. The turbine is a good example, the only functional design is more akin to the Whittle design with centrifugal action as opposed to axial. There are axial engines, but nothing yet off the shelf. The kind of turbine that will drive this used to need propane to start, so that the combustion chamber was hot enough to burn the kerosene, though now they have overcome that. All said, the molecule size is the same for model or full size as are the temperatures which mean vaporizing the fuel is tougher in the model as is heat dissipation with much smaller surface areas.
But that is where the challenge lies. Please also tell me if I am banging on too much. My life's regret is not to push myself when younger, physically and mentally. I know not whether I could have made it as a heli pilot, but I never made the chance or opportunity, this is as close as I can get and is a passion but one of which I wish not to bore you about!
I reckon we are looking at rotor diameter of about 2.4 metres when built, which is pretty large, so ought have some presence in the air and be large enough to detail in great accuracy.
First though the research, and then in tandem the mechanical development and the fuselage components.... better start loosening up my sanding arm!
Thank you again everyone, this is all really, really helpful and fascinating to boot.
Cheers,
Gaz
The control system is a spider and piston system which I think was only utilised on Westland aircraft. Very different to Bell, Eurocopter e.t.c.
I believe the joint in the middle was known as a Hardy Spicer but don't hold me to that, I am dredging the brain for 40 year old data.
The two lumps of metal with rods going down to the area of the spider are the pitch moment compensators.
I thought the blades were held on by a couple of gash bolts, the nutplates are missing in the photo!!!!!!!!
Going for a lie down now.
I believe the joint in the middle was known as a Hardy Spicer but don't hold me to that, I am dredging the brain for 40 year old data.
The two lumps of metal with rods going down to the area of the spider are the pitch moment compensators.
I thought the blades were held on by a couple of gash bolts, the nutplates are missing in the photo!!!!!!!!
Going for a lie down now.
Last edited by ericferret; 11th Sep 2013 at 22:07.
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Progress
Does anyone recognise this?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0eyb5mrpq6...background.bmp
I hope so, it is the very start of the project I acquired autocad and did a rough draft up, something I have never done before, was quite pleased with the results!
Next step is to 3d model this in the same software and then start producing some working designs with the mechanical side.....
Thought would let you know project is moving forward!
Cheers,
Gaz
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0eyb5mrpq6...background.bmp
I hope so, it is the very start of the project I acquired autocad and did a rough draft up, something I have never done before, was quite pleased with the results!
Next step is to 3d model this in the same software and then start producing some working designs with the mechanical side.....
Thought would let you know project is moving forward!
Cheers,
Gaz
Last edited by Gazzer1uk; 20th Sep 2013 at 18:46.
Gazzer: Please do keep us informed and be sure to send us some photos or a video clip once she's complete!
Some model-makers are doing a pretty good job of getting close though ..
Happy building!
Happy building!
Gazzer:
Not sure if this can be useful to you?
Westland Scout XT629 of B Flight 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron
As you probably know .. XT629 was gunned-down by two FMA IA58 Pucarás in what was the only air-to-air victory for the Argentinians during the Falklands War. 29's driver was lost and his crewman severely injured.
Not sure if this can be useful to you?
Westland Scout XT629 of B Flight 3 Commando Brigade Air Squadron
As you probably know .. XT629 was gunned-down by two FMA IA58 Pucarás in what was the only air-to-air victory for the Argentinians during the Falklands War. 29's driver was lost and his crewman severely injured.
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Thanks
Thanks Savoia,
That is really a good and helpful picture, many thanks.
Perhaps a model in recognition of the ultimate sacrifice would be appreciated, ..... will have a think about it
Cheers,
Gaz
That is really a good and helpful picture, many thanks.
Perhaps a model in recognition of the ultimate sacrifice would be appreciated, ..... will have a think about it
Cheers,
Gaz
Gazzer: Indeed. I shall need to get the facts straight first however.
Mostafa: Taken from a summary on Aviation Safety Network but if you have more detailed information describing what happened to XT629 on that fateful day, please feel free to contribute so that we can get the facts straight.
Mostafa: Taken from a summary on Aviation Safety Network but if you have more detailed information describing what happened to XT629 on that fateful day, please feel free to contribute so that we can get the facts straight.
Exactly dig - if you want Gaz as already offered I'll put you in touch with most of the RM crews including the Gunner who survived that ordeal but that is a horrible totally out of scale drawing.
Last edited by MOSTAFA; 28th Sep 2013 at 18:28.
