AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
Thank you, HC. Since I am aware of the difference between the the two, am I safe in my assumption that it is entirely possible for the crew to say "Screw this, let's drop below this clag and drive in underneath."? If it helps, I've already been there.
Last edited by diginagain; 30th Aug 2013 at 20:59.
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It's alright to be defensive for the crew but four people lost their lives.
Passengers trust and put their lives in the operators of offshore helicopter
operators and the management.
In this case it went wrong for reasons we have yet to establish.
In the meantime the funerals are taking place.
Perhaps better to have sympathy for families that lost loved ones instead of
worrying about the flight deck crew who have not had the decency to emerge
with their lives intact but concerned about careers.
No spirit of Sully here.
Passengers trust and put their lives in the operators of offshore helicopter
operators and the management.
In this case it went wrong for reasons we have yet to establish.
In the meantime the funerals are taking place.
Perhaps better to have sympathy for families that lost loved ones instead of
worrying about the flight deck crew who have not had the decency to emerge
with their lives intact but concerned about careers.
No spirit of Sully here.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 30th Aug 2013 at 20:50.
This one needs to be studied intensely from the Human Factors perspective ... ...
Yes, and in the back as well.
Windows, doors, seat plan, ...
The accounts of the survivors can have immense value to every one of us who is ever likely to sit back there.
Last edited by jimf671; 30th Aug 2013 at 20:57.
diginagain
Why would they do this - how do they know how low the "clag" goes - is it to sea level? What happens when they find at say 300ft they are still in the clag? It would be lunacy to think that was a safe and appropriate way to approach an airfield
Far better to calculate the ROD to arrive at MDH just short of the MAP and, if the actual is correct, break cloud with the lights and runway directly in front of you. Modern runway lights are very powerful and the pattern of lead in lights naturally leads you towards the runway.
HF
"Screw this, let's drop below this clag and drive in underneath."?
Far better to calculate the ROD to arrive at MDH just short of the MAP and, if the actual is correct, break cloud with the lights and runway directly in front of you. Modern runway lights are very powerful and the pattern of lead in lights naturally leads you towards the runway.
HF
YEO, harsh! Post Cormorant I had the life changing experience of spending an evening in IH's house and hearing his daughter having a nightmare. I also saw JS become a changed man. We don't fly into the water on purpose. Give us a f***ing break on the Sully thing - good outcome from zero choice!
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This one needs to be studied intensely from the Human Factors perspective
Windows, doors, seat plan, ...
The accounts of the survivors can have immense value to every one of us who is ever likely to sit back there.
Last edited by MoodyMan; 30th Aug 2013 at 21:05.
I am in agreement with your argument, HF. The maths is already done, it's on the plate, and you can match your profile as you drive down the approach. So what is it that compels us to to divert from the published procedure? It's not as if it hasn't happen before.
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Far better to calculate the ROD to arrive at MDH just short of the MAP and, if the actual is correct, break cloud with the lights and runway directly in front of you. Modern runway lights are very powerful and the pattern of lead in lights naturally leads you towards the runway.
Moody man,
I do sympathise. I don't even like bouncing around in clear air turbulence over the Bay of Bengal in SIA business class. We all develop our own sense of mortality! I think it's easy to be blasé from the front. It's not the same. I even question the use of jump seats.....
I do sympathise. I don't even like bouncing around in clear air turbulence over the Bay of Bengal in SIA business class. We all develop our own sense of mortality! I think it's easy to be blasé from the front. It's not the same. I even question the use of jump seats.....
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Diginagain
I don't think so. For the crew to have consciously tried to duck under they would have probably been pretty aware and focused on basic parameters like height and airspeed, which they would have maintained at a sensible speed. From the Met it is reasonable to presume the cloud base was not less than 200ft. High enough for a mega focused crew to pull up before hitting the sea. Still seems more like, as ? HC has posted, to be letting the AS reduce critically under low power setting on reaching MDA and losing lift. And being, bizarrely, slow to appreciate that.
IF the cause is from such a reason, despite all the chat about methods of presentation of basic info on flat screens, it would seem pretty inexcusable for a two crew operation to miss such basic info. Hard to believe it is as simple as that unless the crew were very negligent.
I don't think so. For the crew to have consciously tried to duck under they would have probably been pretty aware and focused on basic parameters like height and airspeed, which they would have maintained at a sensible speed. From the Met it is reasonable to presume the cloud base was not less than 200ft. High enough for a mega focused crew to pull up before hitting the sea. Still seems more like, as ? HC has posted, to be letting the AS reduce critically under low power setting on reaching MDA and losing lift. And being, bizarrely, slow to appreciate that.
IF the cause is from such a reason, despite all the chat about methods of presentation of basic info on flat screens, it would seem pretty inexcusable for a two crew operation to miss such basic info. Hard to believe it is as simple as that unless the crew were very negligent.
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Rotorspeed;
Please read this....
Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Please read this....
Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 was a Lockheed L-1011-1 Tristar jet that crashed into the Florida Everglades at 11:42pm December 29, 1972, causing 101 fatalities (99 initial crash fatalities, two died shortly afterward). There were 75 survivors. The crash occurred as a result of the entire flight crew becoming preoccupied with a burnt-out landing gear indicator light and failing to notice the autopilot had inadvertently been disconnected. As a result, the flight gradually lost altitude and eventually crashed while the flight crew was distracted with the indicator problem. It was the first crash of a wide-body aircraft and at the time, the second deadliest single-aircraft disaster in the United States.[1][2]
Ye Olde Pilot "the flight deck crew who have not had the decency to emerge with their lives intact but concerned about careers".
I take great exception to this statement. It is no better than all those who jumped to the conclusion that the Super Pumas should be destroyed, without a shred of evidence that there was a technical cause of the accident.
One of the crew lies in hospital with a broken back and the other was at home, initially in no fit state to speak. Furthermore they would have been well advised not to say anything initially in the aftermath, without having legal representation.
Where do you think that all the agencies involved got the clear idea from, only a few days after the tragedy, that it could have been human error? Only one possibility exists vis. that at least one of them has now elected to talk probably at almost the earliest opportunity, given the inevitable delays due to weather and investigators arriving, etc. Not to mention having to wait for properly appointed legal representatives to arrive.
Even though they won't yet have had an opportunity to comment on the evidence contained in the CVFDR, at least one of them has almost certainly spoken in spite of knowing that their North Sea helicopter careers are probably over.
On behalf of my colleagues in all three helicopter companies who are deeply cognisant of the grief being experienced by the bereaved, I ask you to retract your unfounded accusation.
I take great exception to this statement. It is no better than all those who jumped to the conclusion that the Super Pumas should be destroyed, without a shred of evidence that there was a technical cause of the accident.
One of the crew lies in hospital with a broken back and the other was at home, initially in no fit state to speak. Furthermore they would have been well advised not to say anything initially in the aftermath, without having legal representation.
Where do you think that all the agencies involved got the clear idea from, only a few days after the tragedy, that it could have been human error? Only one possibility exists vis. that at least one of them has now elected to talk probably at almost the earliest opportunity, given the inevitable delays due to weather and investigators arriving, etc. Not to mention having to wait for properly appointed legal representatives to arrive.
Even though they won't yet have had an opportunity to comment on the evidence contained in the CVFDR, at least one of them has almost certainly spoken in spite of knowing that their North Sea helicopter careers are probably over.
On behalf of my colleagues in all three helicopter companies who are deeply cognisant of the grief being experienced by the bereaved, I ask you to retract your unfounded accusation.
Rotorspeed, I concur; it would be inexcusable for a professional crew to do such a thing. But presumption has tripped us up in he past.
Last edited by diginagain; 30th Aug 2013 at 21:25.
Whilst I have worked in aviation all my working life and get defensive when (to my mind) irrational responses take flight, it is still fundamentally a prerequisite of our industry that we care passionately about each and every casualty however statistically "small" they are.
I had the pleasure of working with HC and others on this forum in a 7-year stint in rotary and watch back with affection from the big jet game I returned to. I value the professionalism and varied opinions of each of the disciplines. I do believe Bill Chiles truly was impacted by loss of life in his pre-aviation career as much as he is a driven businessman.
I count myself fortunate that the fam flight I was due to do on an S76 out of Norwich on the 17th of July 2002 was postponed for the most tragic of reasons. I count myself fortunate that I climbed the Northern Line escalator at Kings Cross on the 18th of November 1987 at 15:00 rather than 19:30. I am not religious nor particularly believe in "fate"
In this sad case it is not about (caveated by my prior post) breathing a sigh of relief that the type is (probably) exonerated on the altar of a couple of fallible sacrificial lambs. It is about trying to prevent it happening again.
I had the pleasure of working with HC and others on this forum in a 7-year stint in rotary and watch back with affection from the big jet game I returned to. I value the professionalism and varied opinions of each of the disciplines. I do believe Bill Chiles truly was impacted by loss of life in his pre-aviation career as much as he is a driven businessman.
I count myself fortunate that the fam flight I was due to do on an S76 out of Norwich on the 17th of July 2002 was postponed for the most tragic of reasons. I count myself fortunate that I climbed the Northern Line escalator at Kings Cross on the 18th of November 1987 at 15:00 rather than 19:30. I am not religious nor particularly believe in "fate"
In this sad case it is not about (caveated by my prior post) breathing a sigh of relief that the type is (probably) exonerated on the altar of a couple of fallible sacrificial lambs. It is about trying to prevent it happening again.
Last edited by Non-Driver; 31st Aug 2013 at 07:13.
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YEO, the Everglades L1011 report is less than helpfull! I suggest you consider the recent posts .....
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Colibri49
I take your point but the grief of the families who have lost their loved ones must exceed those lucky enough to have survived.
Are you suggesting one of the pilots has 'talked' to the agencies at the expense of the other?
I take your point but the grief of the families who have lost their loved ones must exceed those lucky enough to have survived.
Are you suggesting one of the pilots has 'talked' to the agencies at the expense of the other?
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 30th Aug 2013 at 21:33.