AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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Don't bash glass
Hey, don't bash the glass screens. When well done they are awesome. It's just some manufac turers have got it dead wrong. They should be taking the best from analogue and putting it on glass (reconfigurable, small IF scan, integrated information). My biggest gripe is the use of moving strip gauges with a fixed needle (such as rad alt, bar alt and ASI on MFD 255) ! My eyes need to see the numbers, I need to comprehend them THEN make a decision. A fixed scale with a moving needle is much better. That means either a rotary gauge for hugely spread numbers (bar alt) and a fixed strip or rotary gauge for rad alt and ASI. I have seen a lot of variation and flown lofts them and that is all that works for me. If you find glass hard, it's probably crap gauges on the glass. If any of you get involved in designing the next glass cockpit then please listen
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It's interesting the pilots have kept a low profile since the event.
Don't bash glass
Sticking with round 'gauges' on a screen just because that's how guys have been flying for decades seems right in the short term, but defeats so many advantages of no longer using a mechanical gauge.
Clean sheet of paper thinking should not be discouraged.
The unfavourable comments about glass cockpits in general are very valid. What a retrograde step. Mostly mixed, random, messy and counterintuitive, totally at odds with how a human seeks and isolates information. If users need training in how to glean/extract vital information from a "Display" (further to regular IFR scanning), then what does that say?
Geoffers, your comments ring a bell with me, but only for the first 25 hrs or so, then one becomes acclimatised. The L2 does by the way have flat screen displays, unless you are referring to a difference between the slight curve of a CRT screen (L2) vs the completely flat LCD screen (eg 225)?
The L2 has 2 screens, one with attitude, speed, pressure alt etc, the other with heading, Nav, power and radalt. The hardest thing I found was getting a hang of looking at the right screen for pressure alt vs radalt. Also, the mechanical standby altimeter was the same size, and next to, the mechanical clock. So many's the time I thought it was 2 o'clock, just because we were at 2000' (or vice versa, which was worse!).
When I moved to the 225 with all info needed to fly the aircraft on 1 screen, it was so much easier, and when converting people from the 332L it never seemed to be an issue. Therefore I think the detail of the MMI is what matters, not whether its separate mechanical instruments, round dial EFIS or strip gauge EFIS.
With the grounding of the 225, a lot of our chaps went back onto the 332L and there were a number of reports with difficulty keeping a good scan.
The L2 has 2 screens, one with attitude, speed, pressure alt etc, the other with heading, Nav, power and radalt. The hardest thing I found was getting a hang of looking at the right screen for pressure alt vs radalt. Also, the mechanical standby altimeter was the same size, and next to, the mechanical clock. So many's the time I thought it was 2 o'clock, just because we were at 2000' (or vice versa, which was worse!).
When I moved to the 225 with all info needed to fly the aircraft on 1 screen, it was so much easier, and when converting people from the 332L it never seemed to be an issue. Therefore I think the detail of the MMI is what matters, not whether its separate mechanical instruments, round dial EFIS or strip gauge EFIS.
With the grounding of the 225, a lot of our chaps went back onto the 332L and there were a number of reports with difficulty keeping a good scan.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 30th Aug 2013 at 07:17.
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Interesting. When I had a look at Plane Finder reporting the AIS, the only trace I could find was Bond 88K an S92 (LN-OED) SQ 7052 of Air Bosna heading East at 3000'. I really wanted to see whether the SP fleet was flying again after the HSSG ruling yesterday. For you techies out there, don't the regular helo flights display on AIS?
TC, I think you may be confusing AIS with something else. AIS is a marine transponder system. What you see on Planefinder is aeronautical mode S transponder extended squitter. This tends to be fitted only to large fixed wing, although recently it has been fitted to some Ec225 and some S92. Its not fitted to any L2 or L as far as I know, at least not in UK waters.
Edited to add, looks like its fitted to recent S76C and Aw139 as well. Lets say "most helis delivered in the last couple of years"
Edited to add, looks like its fitted to recent S76C and Aw139 as well. Lets say "most helis delivered in the last couple of years"
Last edited by HeliComparator; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:21.
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Is air travel (fixed or rotary) safe - yes, compared to most other forms of transport.
Are cost cutting measures being implemented by operators - Oh yes. Has the standard of maintenance reduced - yes.
Do passengers on aircraft consider pilots to be less well trained - yes. But the same can be said for bus drivers, truck drivers and the general standard of driving on our roads.
Can we improve all these standards, maintenance and safety - of course. Are the companies involved and Government willing to open their chequebooks? It appears not.
Are cost cutting measures being implemented by operators - Oh yes. Has the standard of maintenance reduced - yes.
Do passengers on aircraft consider pilots to be less well trained - yes. But the same can be said for bus drivers, truck drivers and the general standard of driving on our roads.
Can we improve all these standards, maintenance and safety - of course. Are the companies involved and Government willing to open their chequebooks? It appears not.
The only NS helo stuff I have seen are the MCA SAR aircraft on the marine AIS and some Bond stuff on the aero ADS-B.
Bond 87R (LN-OEC) is heading east from Dyce at a fair lick right now. I guess their must be a good westerly.
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No, BHL too. G-CFDV, S-76 (?) enroute.
Bond 87R (LN-OEC) is heading east from Dyce at a fair lick right now. I guess their must be a good westerly.
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No, BHL too. G-CFDV, S-76 (?) enroute.
Last edited by jimf671; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:21.
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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
C53204,
The following statement which you said;
"do passengers on aircraft consider pilots to be less well trained - yes".
Where did you get this info from? I find it hard to believe & certainly worrying
The following statement which you said;
"do passengers on aircraft consider pilots to be less well trained - yes".
Where did you get this info from? I find it hard to believe & certainly worrying
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c53204
Passengers may think pilots are less well trained, but are they? I don't think so. In my 35yrs flying helicopters I have seen aircraft become more complex and sophisticated, however, with the increasing use of simulators pilots have been able to keep pace with the advances in technology. Ground school courses are much better in content and structure than when started my career.
Can't agree with you on the standard of maintenance, in my experience it's always been good and hopefully will continue the trend of continual improvement. We can improve on the standards we see today and we must strive to do so.
As for the companies and Government(?) getting their chequebooks out...well, maybe these latest incidents will force them to do so, but I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.
Passengers may think pilots are less well trained, but are they? I don't think so. In my 35yrs flying helicopters I have seen aircraft become more complex and sophisticated, however, with the increasing use of simulators pilots have been able to keep pace with the advances in technology. Ground school courses are much better in content and structure than when started my career.
Can't agree with you on the standard of maintenance, in my experience it's always been good and hopefully will continue the trend of continual improvement. We can improve on the standards we see today and we must strive to do so.
As for the companies and Government(?) getting their chequebooks out...well, maybe these latest incidents will force them to do so, but I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.
On the matter of displays and human perception, many many years ago when I was a student, the class were test subjects for an undergraduate psychology project on spatial ability.
Most of the tests took the form of timed exposures of patterns of marks or letters in an array. Tests were done faster and faster to find the limit of the subjects ability.
The fastest of all the tests was ludicrously fast. I was surprised that human perception operated at these levels. A marker was in an array of boxes and we had to nominate its position. The speeds at which the group were able to do this ranged from 20ms down to 2ms. Yes, milliseconds.
These tests left me in no doubt that displays showing a simple position are far more easily perceived than anything with writing. You might have a preference for a different approach when the sun is shining and all is good with the world but when the pressure is on your brain knows differently.
Most of the tests took the form of timed exposures of patterns of marks or letters in an array. Tests were done faster and faster to find the limit of the subjects ability.
The fastest of all the tests was ludicrously fast. I was surprised that human perception operated at these levels. A marker was in an array of boxes and we had to nominate its position. The speeds at which the group were able to do this ranged from 20ms down to 2ms. Yes, milliseconds.
These tests left me in no doubt that displays showing a simple position are far more easily perceived than anything with writing. You might have a preference for a different approach when the sun is shining and all is good with the world but when the pressure is on your brain knows differently.
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Thanks HC and jimf61 for the input on AIS.
I often watch L-o-S SAR where I was once based in the old days but didn't fully realise that it was only a surface vessel facility. Thought it was awfully quiet out of EGPD - not like in my day
TC
I often watch L-o-S SAR where I was once based in the old days but didn't fully realise that it was only a surface vessel facility. Thought it was awfully quiet out of EGPD - not like in my day
TC
Last edited by TipCap; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:19.
Pilots in Bristow certainly spend more time training than they did say 20 years ago, although as has been said, the helis are perhaps more complex.
It would be interesting to know the ratio of licensed engineers per airframe now vs 20 years ago. I suspect there are fewer now, but that is just a guess. And thanks to EASA, they seem to spend most of their time on paperwork!
It would be interesting to know the ratio of licensed engineers per airframe now vs 20 years ago. I suspect there are fewer now, but that is just a guess. And thanks to EASA, they seem to spend most of their time on paperwork!
Last edited by HeliComparator; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:27.
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AIS - what you see is not what you get!
Like Tipcap I occasionally follow offshore activity, but on Flightradar 24.
I have just had a look at Planefinder and to put it mildly it is a farce.
G-FTOM has just departed from Dyce. It is equpped with "2 turboprop engines"
and the operator is "Gulf International Airlines" and not as one would hope CHC Scotia 
G-LLOV (also CHC Scotia) is inbound to Dyce - operated by "Air Gemini"
Edited for sp.
Edited to add: THe symbols on Planefinder mostly show helicopters with a fixed wing symbol
Bond seem to be shown correctly, with a helicopter symbol & correct operator information.
I have just had a look at Planefinder and to put it mildly it is a farce.
G-FTOM has just departed from Dyce. It is equpped with "2 turboprop engines"
and the operator is "Gulf International Airlines" and not as one would hope CHC Scotia G-LLOV (also CHC Scotia) is inbound to Dyce - operated by "Air Gemini"
Edited for sp.
Edited to add: THe symbols on Planefinder mostly show helicopters with a fixed wing symbol
Bond seem to be shown correctly, with a helicopter symbol & correct operator information.
Last edited by b.borg; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:39.
B.borg, in part its due to the pilots setting Flight ID on the transponder controller correctly. Looks like Bond (as do Bristow) are setting their callsign / flight number, whereas CHC are just leaving the registration, which is incorrect I think.
Currently I don't think Aberdeen ATC have Mode S desks yet, but when they do these things will get picked up.
Currently I don't think Aberdeen ATC have Mode S desks yet, but when they do these things will get picked up.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 30th Aug 2013 at 08:56.
Before I get a roasting from someone at CHC I should mention that the correct procedure for Flight ID is to set the callsign if a flight plan has been filed, if not then the reg. Its a moot point as to whether a flight plan has been filed since we are very unusual in Abz in not filing flight plans ourselves - ATC do it direct via the "mayfly" system. So I suppose it could be argued that as we don't file flight plans, the reg should be entered.
However, after discussion with ATC it was pointed out that it would be much more helpful if the callsign appeared on their screens (when they get them) than having the reg twice. That's why BHL and Bond set the callsign, and the likes of Inverness, who have mode S, can then see it.
Just another example of the widely differing operational ideas between the different operators, albeit a fairly trivial one.
However, after discussion with ATC it was pointed out that it would be much more helpful if the callsign appeared on their screens (when they get them) than having the reg twice. That's why BHL and Bond set the callsign, and the likes of Inverness, who have mode S, can then see it.
Just another example of the widely differing operational ideas between the different operators, albeit a fairly trivial one.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 30th Aug 2013 at 09:11.
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c53204
Your comments are so sweeping and negative that they either come over as being chippy, or requiring qualification. Assuming the latter, for which operator are you saying the standard of maintenance has reduced? On what basis - are you involved in maintenance? And similarly for which operator are you saying the standard of training has reduced? How, specifically?
Are you surprised that cost cutting measures are being implemented by operators? Providing safety standards are not being compromised, don't you think that is the nature of good business? In most businesses there are areas where costs inevitably rise and others where costs can be reduced, and optimising the balance is crucial to economic survival. And without that there are no jobs for you.
Your comments are so sweeping and negative that they either come over as being chippy, or requiring qualification. Assuming the latter, for which operator are you saying the standard of maintenance has reduced? On what basis - are you involved in maintenance? And similarly for which operator are you saying the standard of training has reduced? How, specifically?
Are you surprised that cost cutting measures are being implemented by operators? Providing safety standards are not being compromised, don't you think that is the nature of good business? In most businesses there are areas where costs inevitably rise and others where costs can be reduced, and optimising the balance is crucial to economic survival. And without that there are no jobs for you.
C53204
That's one of the more useful purposes for this forum.
For someone to come out with such a statement is commendable.
2-way comms and all that - it is only a perception after so:
Do companies spend money on pr to convince our pax that our licences and extensive training are valid, or,
Do we dismiss the sweeping comment as another ignorant statement from a Facebook Ranter (if you get my drift?)
We would all like more training but there comes a point when increased training loses out v experience and flying the line.
We've recently recruited some low-time pilots and I have been very impressed with the hours our training department have thrown at the co-jocks, both in the aircraft and down at the sim. Myself included as my mil & civ experience had not included sufficient time in a credible sim and not just a box with lights! I have witnessed remarkably different levels of what is acceptable with other jaa/easa companies so perhaps the passengers are more astute than the drivers think?
It amazes me what some national caa departments pass as credible training levels.
Thanks again c53204 for mentioning this but please try to use a narrower brush next time as I'm kind of proud of our training department but understand your perception in a atmosphere where everything seems to suffer due to Mr Accountant.
That's one of the more useful purposes for this forum.
For someone to come out with such a statement is commendable.
2-way comms and all that - it is only a perception after so:
Do companies spend money on pr to convince our pax that our licences and extensive training are valid, or,
Do we dismiss the sweeping comment as another ignorant statement from a Facebook Ranter (if you get my drift?)
We would all like more training but there comes a point when increased training loses out v experience and flying the line.
We've recently recruited some low-time pilots and I have been very impressed with the hours our training department have thrown at the co-jocks, both in the aircraft and down at the sim. Myself included as my mil & civ experience had not included sufficient time in a credible sim and not just a box with lights! I have witnessed remarkably different levels of what is acceptable with other jaa/easa companies so perhaps the passengers are more astute than the drivers think?
It amazes me what some national caa departments pass as credible training levels.
Thanks again c53204 for mentioning this but please try to use a narrower brush next time as I'm kind of proud of our training department but understand your perception in a atmosphere where everything seems to suffer due to Mr Accountant.
Last edited by EESDL; 30th Aug 2013 at 09:55.
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Guys. Stop trying to kid yourself. The exact figures may be debatable, but if anyone thinks the standard of pilots, drivers, maintenance has not declined - you are reacting exactly as I expected.
NSTB "For Scheduled air transport, pilot error typically accounts for just over half of worldwide accidents with a known cause'. (Wiki). This rises to 78% for GA accidents.
So what amount is caused by poor design (say Main Gearboxes) or bad maintenance (say main gearboxes).........
Add in known maintenance issues that have cause fatal/non fatal accidents and for good effect add the internet (787 fiasco). Is it any wonder passengers have less faith in air transport these days.
I'm a lapsed PPL (A+H) (last flight circa 1995) and used to think nothing of commercial flying. A little different these days.
NSTB "For Scheduled air transport, pilot error typically accounts for just over half of worldwide accidents with a known cause'. (Wiki). This rises to 78% for GA accidents.
So what amount is caused by poor design (say Main Gearboxes) or bad maintenance (say main gearboxes).........
Add in known maintenance issues that have cause fatal/non fatal accidents and for good effect add the internet (787 fiasco). Is it any wonder passengers have less faith in air transport these days.
I'm a lapsed PPL (A+H) (last flight circa 1995) and used to think nothing of commercial flying. A little different these days.