AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
Wreckage
So it seems the bit we saw bobbing around was just the floor pan and a bit of cabin, with fuel tanks giving it buoyancy - the floats looking ineffective. The whole top deck of engines and transmission are separate and only just recovered. Wow, so a very high energy impact and I'm amazed that the injury rate wasn't worse. I would imagine that those who didn't evacuate were too incapacitated from the impact, rather than stuck.
It makes all the discussions about high level floats irrelevant.
So it seems the bit we saw bobbing around was just the floor pan and a bit of cabin, with fuel tanks giving it buoyancy - the floats looking ineffective. The whole top deck of engines and transmission are separate and only just recovered. Wow, so a very high energy impact and I'm amazed that the injury rate wasn't worse. I would imagine that those who didn't evacuate were too incapacitated from the impact, rather than stuck.
It makes all the discussions about high level floats irrelevant.
skadi
Last edited by skadi; 29th Aug 2013 at 07:29.
Possibly, however an intact upside down helicopter doesn't tend to drift much with the wind, whereas the visible wreckage seemed to get to the rocks quite quickly in moderate wind (not sure about the current though).
I'm a bit confused about where these heavy bits have been found - "off the southern tip of Shetland" according to the Beeb. If they are in shallow water by rocks, your theory is sound. But if nearer the original impact location, surely they must have separated at the time?
I'm a bit confused about where these heavy bits have been found - "off the southern tip of Shetland" according to the Beeb. If they are in shallow water by rocks, your theory is sound. But if nearer the original impact location, surely they must have separated at the time?
Last edited by HeliComparator; 29th Aug 2013 at 07:39.
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OMONEZ - whatever you are on or smoking, please stop it. Your posts are random and confusing and I would suggest unhelpful. Especially your sideswipes at our passengers!
DB
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Lies, dammed lies, etc.
Airwave45:
"Two operations, side by side have a world of difference in stats.
.....why is that? ..."
You have repeatedly referred to "two operations" and "Scottish helicopters" over the last few days. I would point out these are artificial constructs that exist only in your head.
There is no "Scottish helicopters" at Aberdeen; there are three completely separate companies, one of which has had three of the accidents and the other two. To lump the third, which hasn't been involved in any of these, into some imaginary grouping may simplify things for you but it does not match the reality of the situation.
What seems to be going on in your posts is an attempt to use a lack of accidents to show the Norwegians as having a level of excellence we should all aspire to, while disregarding the same lack of accidents at Bristow in Aberdeen as statistically insignificant or some kind of dumb luck. You can't have it both ways. I realise you haven't explicitly said this in your posts but the subtext is clear.
As to levels of excellence, perhaps we should all, Norwegians included, look at how they do it in Scatsta where they have had ZERO fatalities since the operation started. Yes, I am being sarcastic, but this is the kind it thing that statistics throw up. Like any other operation they too have had their share of close calls.
Finally, can I just say how disappointed I am with the final line of the BALPA statement, which buys into this intellectual vacuousness. I'm pretty sure you could go to _any_ offshore helicopter company and learn things about improving safety.
"Two operations, side by side have a world of difference in stats.
.....why is that? ..."
You have repeatedly referred to "two operations" and "Scottish helicopters" over the last few days. I would point out these are artificial constructs that exist only in your head.
There is no "Scottish helicopters" at Aberdeen; there are three completely separate companies, one of which has had three of the accidents and the other two. To lump the third, which hasn't been involved in any of these, into some imaginary grouping may simplify things for you but it does not match the reality of the situation.
What seems to be going on in your posts is an attempt to use a lack of accidents to show the Norwegians as having a level of excellence we should all aspire to, while disregarding the same lack of accidents at Bristow in Aberdeen as statistically insignificant or some kind of dumb luck. You can't have it both ways. I realise you haven't explicitly said this in your posts but the subtext is clear.
As to levels of excellence, perhaps we should all, Norwegians included, look at how they do it in Scatsta where they have had ZERO fatalities since the operation started. Yes, I am being sarcastic, but this is the kind it thing that statistics throw up. Like any other operation they too have had their share of close calls.
Finally, can I just say how disappointed I am with the final line of the BALPA statement, which buys into this intellectual vacuousness. I'm pretty sure you could go to _any_ offshore helicopter company and learn things about improving safety.
RJC - so if I say "hand brake" that means nothing to you? Depends on your definition of an accident i suppose
Although I agree with your general sentiment, neither should we be complacent.
Edited - oh you said fatalities, not accidents, sorry!
Anyway, I think Bristow is lucky to have at the top not some faceless accountant, but a guy who has been SLF in his time and is passionate about safety, whether that be out of altruism or because he knows the cost of accidents I don't care.
Although I agree with your general sentiment, neither should we be complacent.
Edited - oh you said fatalities, not accidents, sorry!
Anyway, I think Bristow is lucky to have at the top not some faceless accountant, but a guy who has been SLF in his time and is passionate about safety, whether that be out of altruism or because he knows the cost of accidents I don't care.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 29th Aug 2013 at 07:54.
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Ray - I have to say I disagree with your assessment of Airwaves posts. He is deeply concerned, as are we all, at the accident rate. He has correctly identified that for the past few years it seems to happen to the UK sector more than the Norwegians. This is a fact.
The statistics imply that there may be some differences in culture, procedure and operating requirements that are responsible for this partisan disposition. This is also a valid assumption and should therefore be explored. As SAS says, we must drop our shields and look at all aspects of the situation.
To illustrate this point and pick up on your own observations, both the Norwegian and the Scatsta operations do not routinely undertake extreme long range flights such as ABZ-EGPB-ESB-EGPB-ABZ which one could infer place considerable strain of the operational infrastructure of those Companies that do.
DB
The statistics imply that there may be some differences in culture, procedure and operating requirements that are responsible for this partisan disposition. This is also a valid assumption and should therefore be explored. As SAS says, we must drop our shields and look at all aspects of the situation.
To illustrate this point and pick up on your own observations, both the Norwegian and the Scatsta operations do not routinely undertake extreme long range flights such as ABZ-EGPB-ESB-EGPB-ABZ which one could infer place considerable strain of the operational infrastructure of those Companies that do.
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 29th Aug 2013 at 07:55.
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I believe (given the tack which the general response has taken since this tragedy) that a comparative review of North Sea operations (overall) is inevitable.
This, necessarily, should include the Dutch and the Danes of course as well as any other providers.
I think most would be keen to discover whether there are any significant differences in the flight crew training and maintenance regimes between North Sea operators.
But, experience also tells me that sometimes it isn't just the seemingly significant variations which always possess the answers for it could just as easily be something subtle which contributes to an overall enhancement in safety.
Such a review should be conducted if for no other reason to verify that the overall standards are comparable so that this comparison can be dropped from future debates. Hopefully along the way some beneficial lessons can be learned.
From PPRuNe I suggest we pack off Mechta and HeliComparator to join the assessment team!
This, necessarily, should include the Dutch and the Danes of course as well as any other providers.
I think most would be keen to discover whether there are any significant differences in the flight crew training and maintenance regimes between North Sea operators.
But, experience also tells me that sometimes it isn't just the seemingly significant variations which always possess the answers for it could just as easily be something subtle which contributes to an overall enhancement in safety.
Such a review should be conducted if for no other reason to verify that the overall standards are comparable so that this comparison can be dropped from future debates. Hopefully along the way some beneficial lessons can be learned.
From PPRuNe I suggest we pack off Mechta and HeliComparator to join the assessment team!
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DB, we are all concerned, but sweeping generalisations do not help. I am not a UK sector pilot, I am a pilot with company A, with base management B on fleet C, maintained by engineer D, flying for company E. This is grossly simplified but each of those and more has a quantifiable effect on the safety of my cockpit.
Maybe at that level statistics might throw up something meaningful but I have serious doubts that macro level ones do.
Maybe at that level statistics might throw up something meaningful but I have serious doubts that macro level ones do.
Sounds like the P and J and Evening Express are stirring the sh&t over this, as I remember it, didn't they help in the demise of the Chinook ?
They should start looking at bent councillors as I know a few of them living the high life off a few scams in the N.E, 2 spring to mind !
They should start looking at bent councillors as I know a few of them living the high life off a few scams in the N.E, 2 spring to mind !
Distance
... both the Norwegian and the Scatsta operations do not routinely undertake extreme long range flights such as ABZ-EGPB-ESB-EGPB-ABZ which one could infer place considerable strain of the operational infrastructure of those Companies that do.
There have been comparisons with Norwegian, GoM and Bass Strait operations and I wonder if distance may be an important factor. Although there are a few long flights in those territories, doesn't most of the work, particularly historically, consist of flights that are short compared to the UK.
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Hmm, AAIB are trying to make an announcement about the accident, but the link they provide says "page not found", maybe they are having an automation issue.
Air Accidents Investigation: AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter G-WNSB Press Release
Air Accidents Investigation: AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter G-WNSB Press Release
Last edited by Thridle Op Des; 29th Aug 2013 at 09:15. Reason: Added link
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Here we go:
Accident to AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter, G-WNSB, on approach to Sumburgh Airport, on 23 August 2013
At 1717 hrs UTC on 23 August 2013, an AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter crashed into the sea whilst on approach to Sumburgh Airport in the Shetland Islands. Four of the 18 occupants lost their lives.
The AAIB immediately despatched a team of investigators and support staff to Aberdeen and the Shetland Islands. In accordance with the normal protocols the AAIB invited representatives from the French accident investigation authority (BEA), the helicopter manufacturer, and the engine manufacturer to participate in the investigation.
Preliminary information indicates that the approach proceeded normally until approximately three miles from the runway when there was a reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent. The helicopter struck the sea approximately two miles west of the Runway 09 threshold.
The evidence currently available suggests that the helicopter was intact and upright when it entered the water. It then rapidly inverted and drifted northwards towards Garths Ness. The helicopter was largely broken up by repeated contact with the rocky shoreline. Some items of wreckage have already been recovered and will be transported to the AAIB's HQ in Farnborough.
Attempts to recover the Combined Voice and Flight Data Recorder, together with other wreckage items, are continuing. This is a challenging operation due to the nature of the environment in which the wreckage is located.
The investigation is ongoing and at this early stage it is not possible to identify the causal factors leading to the accident.
At 1717 hrs UTC on 23 August 2013, an AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter crashed into the sea whilst on approach to Sumburgh Airport in the Shetland Islands. Four of the 18 occupants lost their lives.
The AAIB immediately despatched a team of investigators and support staff to Aberdeen and the Shetland Islands. In accordance with the normal protocols the AAIB invited representatives from the French accident investigation authority (BEA), the helicopter manufacturer, and the engine manufacturer to participate in the investigation.
Preliminary information indicates that the approach proceeded normally until approximately three miles from the runway when there was a reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent. The helicopter struck the sea approximately two miles west of the Runway 09 threshold.
The evidence currently available suggests that the helicopter was intact and upright when it entered the water. It then rapidly inverted and drifted northwards towards Garths Ness. The helicopter was largely broken up by repeated contact with the rocky shoreline. Some items of wreckage have already been recovered and will be transported to the AAIB's HQ in Farnborough.
Attempts to recover the Combined Voice and Flight Data Recorder, together with other wreckage items, are continuing. This is a challenging operation due to the nature of the environment in which the wreckage is located.
The investigation is ongoing and at this early stage it is not possible to identify the causal factors leading to the accident.
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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
"Reduction in airspeed accompanied by an increased rate of descent" that is interesting. Could that indicate vortex ring state?
HeliC - If it was CFITW then what would explain the reduction in airspeed and the sudden loss of height. If they are 3 miles out what sort of altitude would they normally be at.
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KwiNed
Flying 3 axis coupled at Vy, ALTA capture at MDA and a failure to raise the collective would produce this exact effect and its progression is exponential as the IAS slides backwards up the Power Velocity curve.
Flying 3 axis coupled at Vy, ALTA capture at MDA and a failure to raise the collective would produce this exact effect and its progression is exponential as the IAS slides backwards up the Power Velocity curve.