AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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There was a quote from a survivor on day two (I think) saying something similar, that the helicopter had 'lurched' to the left and then to the right before hitting the water. I think the quote was in the P&J but can't be sure.
No doubt we will find out exactly what happened when the FDCVR is recovered.
No doubt we will find out exactly what happened when the FDCVR is recovered.
HC, I guess you are the one most likely to know. Many years ago when 332's were known as Tigers, was there not one on approach to ABZ that had a double engine fail, they managed a relight and landed safely. I believe it was never really found out what the reason was but was most likely icing of the chip-pan which of course was long gone on landing. I know it cold in the far north but surely not that cold. Mind I remember snow in June on Shetland.
I was out of the country when it happened and the grape vine doesn't work as well as it might with distance.
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire. I have great trust it any of the machines on the NS and feel the witch hunt is sad to see and poorly informed. I do understand their fear but I feel they are wrong but how one can get it across to them I don't know.
I was out of the country when it happened and the grape vine doesn't work as well as it might with distance.
Please forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to add fuel to the fire. I have great trust it any of the machines on the NS and feel the witch hunt is sad to see and poorly informed. I do understand their fear but I feel they are wrong but how one can get it across to them I don't know.
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Comment from the back of the bus (again, I know it's not welcome by all, but, tough, this is the internet)
As non willing pax, I'm so heartened by the tone of the commentary. There are patently people who think outside of the "poleing" box and consider the use of automation, in it's place, with due regard to currency and competency.
Finally saw a comment by a Noggie (not meant to be derogatory, just a shortening of the name, sorry) which came across as complimentary as could be about Scottish sop's, maint practises and standards.
He doesn't get why there are differences. I don't get why there are differences, you (as the boys n girls at the pointy end) don't see why there should be differences either.
Maybe, maybe it is a statistical anomoly.
Maybe it's not.
For those still nailing their colours to the mast and defending one breed of helicopter, you are missing the point.
Sorry.
Two operations, side by side have a world of difference in stats.
.....why is that? ...
i'm buggered if I know, and patently most of us on here are too.
My earlier reference to automation, was really to kick out the CFIT thing, if, and I have no idea, it was CFIT, then, why?
DB champions appropriate use of automation.
(Personally, I hate it, as it diminishes my role, but I do a different job from you)
.....
Sort of.
If guys are not using appropriate levels of automation, why not?
There were some other comments about shaving costs being pushed from oil co's.
That troubles me on two levels.
1) the oil co's are deadly serious about upping standards, they really are.
If you feel that they are only talking the talk and not walking the walk, i'll bet you a month of my wages versus a month of yours that I can prove they mean it.
We may have to dodge middle management biffs to nail that down, but at VP level, they genuinely are sod the cost, make it safe.
2) you percieve that cost matters to the oil co's.
Hand on my heart, if there is a perception on your part that it's safer to be in the cruise for 10 more minutes to make things safer. Not one swinging d1ck from any oil co will disagree.
To give perspective on where that comes from, the bunch of proffesionals I look after, get through 25mil a month (usd) i have calls from field guys who tell me that the senior op on the job is "tired" and needs to take "rest".
I can and do sanction shutting down a 200k/day op, to let them "take rest"
Nobody gives me more than sarcastic passing sh1t for doing that.
Sometimes, the "big boy pants" need wearing at the pointy end.
Sometimes. ( well, by the management of the pointy end)
I'm astounded by the levels of automation you seem to use.
i'm also astounded that, if that actually is the case, CFIT could even be mentioned (so possibly what is said and done, don't match)
The cause of the most recent incident will come out in due course.
I doubt it will change which ship is in use.
I hope, genuinely, that there is a bit of prolonged, serious, navel gazing goes on as to what can de done to improve things.
There is a steady stream of old ( experienced, not too bad at their day Jobs) farts getting out of the N Sea as they perceive it to be just too scary to go to work.
(I know some of them go to work on motorcycles which makes that comment nonsensical, but there are control issues there)
Just for clarity sake here (as a dig at those who have intimated I should button it) if I get it wrong, I can kill the company.
If you get it wrong, you won't.
Many thanks to SP for allowing me on the fora.
Many thanks to SP for deleting the worst of my rants.
However, the Chinooks were atrocious !
:-)
None of your posts have been deleted nor moderated?
Which you may take as recognition that your contributions are more than welcome here, and add to the wisdom generated by this thread.
Even if not all agree with your views: especially about the BV234 and the willingness of oil companies to spend wisely on aviation safety, but that's a personal opinion!
Splot
As non willing pax, I'm so heartened by the tone of the commentary. There are patently people who think outside of the "poleing" box and consider the use of automation, in it's place, with due regard to currency and competency.
Finally saw a comment by a Noggie (not meant to be derogatory, just a shortening of the name, sorry) which came across as complimentary as could be about Scottish sop's, maint practises and standards.
He doesn't get why there are differences. I don't get why there are differences, you (as the boys n girls at the pointy end) don't see why there should be differences either.
Maybe, maybe it is a statistical anomoly.
Maybe it's not.
For those still nailing their colours to the mast and defending one breed of helicopter, you are missing the point.
Sorry.
Two operations, side by side have a world of difference in stats.
.....why is that? ...
i'm buggered if I know, and patently most of us on here are too.
My earlier reference to automation, was really to kick out the CFIT thing, if, and I have no idea, it was CFIT, then, why?
DB champions appropriate use of automation.
(Personally, I hate it, as it diminishes my role, but I do a different job from you)
.....
Sort of.
If guys are not using appropriate levels of automation, why not?
There were some other comments about shaving costs being pushed from oil co's.
That troubles me on two levels.
1) the oil co's are deadly serious about upping standards, they really are.
If you feel that they are only talking the talk and not walking the walk, i'll bet you a month of my wages versus a month of yours that I can prove they mean it.
We may have to dodge middle management biffs to nail that down, but at VP level, they genuinely are sod the cost, make it safe.
2) you percieve that cost matters to the oil co's.
Hand on my heart, if there is a perception on your part that it's safer to be in the cruise for 10 more minutes to make things safer. Not one swinging d1ck from any oil co will disagree.
To give perspective on where that comes from, the bunch of proffesionals I look after, get through 25mil a month (usd) i have calls from field guys who tell me that the senior op on the job is "tired" and needs to take "rest".
I can and do sanction shutting down a 200k/day op, to let them "take rest"
Nobody gives me more than sarcastic passing sh1t for doing that.
Sometimes, the "big boy pants" need wearing at the pointy end.
Sometimes. ( well, by the management of the pointy end)
I'm astounded by the levels of automation you seem to use.
i'm also astounded that, if that actually is the case, CFIT could even be mentioned (so possibly what is said and done, don't match)
The cause of the most recent incident will come out in due course.
I doubt it will change which ship is in use.
I hope, genuinely, that there is a bit of prolonged, serious, navel gazing goes on as to what can de done to improve things.
There is a steady stream of old ( experienced, not too bad at their day Jobs) farts getting out of the N Sea as they perceive it to be just too scary to go to work.
(I know some of them go to work on motorcycles which makes that comment nonsensical, but there are control issues there)
Just for clarity sake here (as a dig at those who have intimated I should button it) if I get it wrong, I can kill the company.
If you get it wrong, you won't.
Many thanks to SP for allowing me on the fora.
Many thanks to SP for deleting the worst of my rants.
However, the Chinooks were atrocious !
:-)
None of your posts have been deleted nor moderated?
Which you may take as recognition that your contributions are more than welcome here, and add to the wisdom generated by this thread.
Even if not all agree with your views: especially about the BV234 and the willingness of oil companies to spend wisely on aviation safety, but that's a personal opinion!
Splot
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Good posts HC, SAS and DB.
Sure the small boat will find the tailboom soon. HC ability to fly the aircraft is very important but again we all fall into the hole of junior staff not understanding many basics. Every advance in system can help the crew to do things with less stress but they need to understand the basics. Not the MB ticks in the box. Not many have the gift of a natural and understand the systems.
Correct training for all not just tick boxes. The first holes line up with the Manufacturer then LAE, Crew. We all know and live with these. Lets start to get the Pax training correct that is new holes to line up.
Sure the small boat will find the tailboom soon. HC ability to fly the aircraft is very important but again we all fall into the hole of junior staff not understanding many basics. Every advance in system can help the crew to do things with less stress but they need to understand the basics. Not the MB ticks in the box. Not many have the gift of a natural and understand the systems.
Correct training for all not just tick boxes. The first holes line up with the Manufacturer then LAE, Crew. We all know and live with these. Lets start to get the Pax training correct that is new holes to line up.
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sevarg
From what I can remember, the aircraft was skimming along the top of the clouds in an area of super saturation at temperatures around freezing. The air intake baskets were slightly misaligned and allowed a large quantity of slush to build up. This was ingested into the engines which put out the fires.
Fleet realignment of the baskets was carried out and further anti icing was added to the engines. It was also after the introduction of the type and there were a lot of problems which were all sorted out in due time.
I flew over 10,000 hours on the AS332L and it was very kind to me.
Sadly neither of the pilots flying that particular flight are with us (RIP) passing away in non flying accidents
TC
From what I can remember, the aircraft was skimming along the top of the clouds in an area of super saturation at temperatures around freezing. The air intake baskets were slightly misaligned and allowed a large quantity of slush to build up. This was ingested into the engines which put out the fires.
Fleet realignment of the baskets was carried out and further anti icing was added to the engines. It was also after the introduction of the type and there were a lot of problems which were all sorted out in due time.
I flew over 10,000 hours on the AS332L and it was very kind to me.
Sadly neither of the pilots flying that particular flight are with us (RIP) passing away in non flying accidents
TC
Last edited by TipCap; 28th Aug 2013 at 22:46. Reason: grammar
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Soory John ! He of the gas mask case carrying entered Vortex ring I did the download. Very close to the boat and sea. After sleepy had gone he phoned me at home for help with a 206 in Burntisland. No way! Sorry to hear he has passed.
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I think the press need to be particularly careful with the photos. Especially when one shows what appears to be victim in row four drifting out of the window. The papers have used this photo in several instances. 
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me.
I see you guys walking out!!!!!! People flew to the moon with less. 225 and on are the only types that people can get out of.
]
I see you guys walking out!!!!!! People flew to the moon with less. 225 and on are the only types that people can get out of.
]
We are going to work.
We won't get medals, or recognition, just paid.
We have no choice what we fly in, just whether we do or don't.
I've made my choice, others have too.
There are perceptions of job, role, duty.
You have yours, I have mine.
You carry on playing with the FMC, I'll look after the people I work with.
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Airwave, and the wider offshore "bear" community, I understand your concern on automation as I once felt that way too. Back then I was flying the AS332L after four years of flying SAR on the S61, believe it or not the 61 was more automated for the SAR role than the 332 ever was.
I held off applying to fly the 225 for fear of loosing my flying "feel" and my seat of the pants ability to fly. I had all the same concerns others have expressed here and fully understand and support those concerns. The difference is when you get an in depth look into the 225 and HOW it does things. Perhaps an idea would be to get a few savy operators like you into our sim to watch a crew get put through their paces in a bad BAD weather scenario. Thus you could see how it really does work at the sharp end.
I am being utterly honest and sincere in my praise of the 225, I know 11 years on the north sea is nothing compared to others but given a choice it would be a 225 every time. I am confident in our aircraft, engineers and training and will vouch for them every time. I cannot comment on other operators though as I have only been one scheme of red/white/blue.
I sincerely hope the current situation can be improved, not just a "oh they've forgotten" and business as usual, but a proper review/investigation of how we can drive safety forwards. When it comes to safety we cannot rest on our laurels and it must be forever onwards and upwards folks.
Peace, love and happiness lets see how much of a flaming I get now
Si
I held off applying to fly the 225 for fear of loosing my flying "feel" and my seat of the pants ability to fly. I had all the same concerns others have expressed here and fully understand and support those concerns. The difference is when you get an in depth look into the 225 and HOW it does things. Perhaps an idea would be to get a few savy operators like you into our sim to watch a crew get put through their paces in a bad BAD weather scenario. Thus you could see how it really does work at the sharp end.
I am being utterly honest and sincere in my praise of the 225, I know 11 years on the north sea is nothing compared to others but given a choice it would be a 225 every time. I am confident in our aircraft, engineers and training and will vouch for them every time. I cannot comment on other operators though as I have only been one scheme of red/white/blue.
I sincerely hope the current situation can be improved, not just a "oh they've forgotten" and business as usual, but a proper review/investigation of how we can drive safety forwards. When it comes to safety we cannot rest on our laurels and it must be forever onwards and upwards folks.
Peace, love and happiness lets see how much of a flaming I get now
Si
I know how I would vote....get the ol' girl moving to the point I could hand off to George....sit back and admire the fine job George is doing....and when it is time for me to earn my money again....thank George and take the controls for the landing.
I do hold with the concept that the Autopilot system might be doing the mechanical part....but the Pilot Flying is doing just that by use of the Autopilot system. The Pilot Not Flying....is taking care of all the other tasks...and at the same time making sure the PF and George are in synch and the PF is directly supervising George.
There is no nicer thing than to watch George do an ILS to minimums and put you into the exact same spot every time like clockwork. That it is much safer makes it all the better.
Even in the early days of Autopilot systems....I used them as much as possible particularly when single pilot. If you think they are more trouble than they are worth.....be single pilot all set up and planned for an ILS to a runway in rotten weather.....and get a Runway change close in to the airport and have the auto pilot kick off due to a technical fault.
The stress level can be tremendous especially if it is at night and you happen to drop the Approach Plate when you are shuffling paper around getting set up.
No....Automation is very good.
Just use it correctly.
I do hold with the concept that the Autopilot system might be doing the mechanical part....but the Pilot Flying is doing just that by use of the Autopilot system. The Pilot Not Flying....is taking care of all the other tasks...and at the same time making sure the PF and George are in synch and the PF is directly supervising George.
There is no nicer thing than to watch George do an ILS to minimums and put you into the exact same spot every time like clockwork. That it is much safer makes it all the better.
Even in the early days of Autopilot systems....I used them as much as possible particularly when single pilot. If you think they are more trouble than they are worth.....be single pilot all set up and planned for an ILS to a runway in rotten weather.....and get a Runway change close in to the airport and have the auto pilot kick off due to a technical fault.
The stress level can be tremendous especially if it is at night and you happen to drop the Approach Plate when you are shuffling paper around getting set up.
No....Automation is very good.
Just use it correctly.
0300 UTC Wed. The Bibby Polaris is about to enter Lerwick harbour. Reports indicate this trip was delayed while newly found wreckage (not incl CVFDR) was taken onboard.
Perhaps coincidentally; we shall see later in the morning; an acoustically silent research vessel with an interesting sonar fit and equipped for ROV has just rounded Sumburgh Head after steaming from near the Norwegian coast and having been off Denmark a few days ago. Considering where the search operation is now, it will be a shame if a bit of kit like that just steams on by.
Perhaps coincidentally; we shall see later in the morning; an acoustically silent research vessel with an interesting sonar fit and equipped for ROV has just rounded Sumburgh Head after steaming from near the Norwegian coast and having been off Denmark a few days ago. Considering where the search operation is now, it will be a shame if a bit of kit like that just steams on by.
Last edited by jimf671; 29th Aug 2013 at 03:07.
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Dual engine failure was just a little bit before HC,s time I think. Derek was blamed for doing an overspeed test in flight. There was another both flew very close to RAF Buchan. Thats covered with the screening of your systems. Can see his face but the name? Dougal was a good safe operator whilst a pain in my butt. My last 330 flight was with Dougal in Miri we were taken in hand nothing valid!. The S--T might remember.We were there there to bring the first 332 to MHS. Derek Douglas RIP.
From Sky News
Some half decent reporting for once. Shame they had to finish off with a Bob 'and my members' Crow quotation.
Salvage experts believe they know the location of the black box flight recorder from the Super Puma helicopter which crashed off Shetland.
Current sea conditions, however, are too rough for a close inspection of the seabed.
The black box should contain vital information as to why the helicopter suffered a catastrophic loss of power. Without it, crash investigators have been frustrated in their efforts to pinpoint a cause.
Important sections of the aircraft have, however, been found. They include both engines, the gearbox and the rotor head of the Super Puma.
Several important sections of the helicopter have already been recovered
John Henderson, of Shetland marine engineering firm Ocean Kinetics, told Sky News: "Ocean Kinetics have successfully located, lifted and passed the gearbox and rotor head of the helicopter.
"We have also located both engines and parts of the cockpit, which will likely be recovered on Thursday.
"We are still searching for the flight recorder which we believe is located at the Point of Garths Ness. There is a heavy swell running, hampering diving operations."
Representatives from across the North Sea oil and gas industry will meet on Thursday for the second time in two days to decide whether or not to lift a flying ban on Super Puma helicopters.
A meeting broke up without agreement on Wednesday after some companies argued that Super Puma models, other than the L2 which crashed off Shetland, should be allowed to resume flights.
The Unite union has made it clear that it wants flights of all Super Pumas suspended until the cause of the tragedy is known.
Flights by all the Super PUmas like that in the crash have been suspended
Contingency plans have been drawn up to maintain North Sea operations in the absence of the Super Pumas, which account for more than 50% of all flights to and from North Sea platforms. Oil and gas companies are sharing transport and sourcing other aircraft from around the world.
Some have also commissioned boats to ferry workers to and from rigs, although sea transport does not offer an attractive alternative.
Journeys can take upwards of 12 hours and transferring staff from boat to platform typically involves a "basket transfer", in which three or four people at a time are strapped inside a capsule and lifted by crane onto the rig. It is not a pleasant adventure in flat calm conditions; in a rough sea it can be impossible.
The RMT union held a rally at their Aberdeen office calling for improved safety. General Secretary Bob Crow told Sky News that lessons must be learned.
He said: "One thing's for sure, our members shouldn't pay the ultimate price of losing their life as a result of going to work."
Current sea conditions, however, are too rough for a close inspection of the seabed.
The black box should contain vital information as to why the helicopter suffered a catastrophic loss of power. Without it, crash investigators have been frustrated in their efforts to pinpoint a cause.
Important sections of the aircraft have, however, been found. They include both engines, the gearbox and the rotor head of the Super Puma.
Several important sections of the helicopter have already been recovered
John Henderson, of Shetland marine engineering firm Ocean Kinetics, told Sky News: "Ocean Kinetics have successfully located, lifted and passed the gearbox and rotor head of the helicopter.
"We have also located both engines and parts of the cockpit, which will likely be recovered on Thursday.
"We are still searching for the flight recorder which we believe is located at the Point of Garths Ness. There is a heavy swell running, hampering diving operations."
Representatives from across the North Sea oil and gas industry will meet on Thursday for the second time in two days to decide whether or not to lift a flying ban on Super Puma helicopters.
A meeting broke up without agreement on Wednesday after some companies argued that Super Puma models, other than the L2 which crashed off Shetland, should be allowed to resume flights.
The Unite union has made it clear that it wants flights of all Super Pumas suspended until the cause of the tragedy is known.
Flights by all the Super PUmas like that in the crash have been suspended
Contingency plans have been drawn up to maintain North Sea operations in the absence of the Super Pumas, which account for more than 50% of all flights to and from North Sea platforms. Oil and gas companies are sharing transport and sourcing other aircraft from around the world.
Some have also commissioned boats to ferry workers to and from rigs, although sea transport does not offer an attractive alternative.
Journeys can take upwards of 12 hours and transferring staff from boat to platform typically involves a "basket transfer", in which three or four people at a time are strapped inside a capsule and lifted by crane onto the rig. It is not a pleasant adventure in flat calm conditions; in a rough sea it can be impossible.
The RMT union held a rally at their Aberdeen office calling for improved safety. General Secretary Bob Crow told Sky News that lessons must be learned.
He said: "One thing's for sure, our members shouldn't pay the ultimate price of losing their life as a result of going to work."
332L double eng failure
This was in the second or third winter of operation, so around 1984. The engine intakes are protected by the "chip baskets" and the engines themselves have hot oil circulating inside the inlets, keeping them warm in icing conditions. But no consideration was given to the 9" or so of ducting between the two. Ice built up in this ducting at around zero C in very moist conditions, then a slight increase in temperature caused the ice to break away in a oner, putting the fires out. The fix was to add electrical heating mats to the ducting. Simples, but the original omission was a classic case of trouble in the bit where airframe manufacturer meets engine manufacturer.
Wreckage
So it seems the bit we saw bobbing around was just the floor pan and a bit of cabin, with fuel tanks giving it buoyancy - the floats looking ineffective. The whole top deck of engines and transmission are separate and only just recovered. Wow, so a very high energy impact and I'm amazed that the injury rate wasn't worse. I would imagine that those who didn't evacuate were too incapacitated from the impact, rather than stuck.
It makes all the discussions about high level floats irrelevant.
It makes all the discussions about high level floats irrelevant.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 29th Aug 2013 at 07:12.
I believe it was Mechta who suggested the use of a confidential reporting system for raising concerns. Of course, air- and ground crew as well as maintainers can do-so using CHIRP. The oil industry have been offered a similar confidential occurrence reporting system but this offer has been rebuffed. It seems that while OGUK/Step Change In Safety would like greater workforce engagement, there are limits as to how much engagement is warranted, it appears.
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AIRWAVE 45 Biggles suggestion that we give you guys some visibility of the levels of automation is fully supported by me. If you and others like you, would like to see the EC225 in all its glory my XMT have given me the opportunity to demonstrate this to you in our Full Flight Simulator.
PM or call on the number given. It may not help you overcome your fear of the helicopter but it will make you understand just what a tremendous step forward the EC225 and the procedures we emply to operate it, really are. AW and Sikorsky are fine ships and as a 2.5K S61 driver I have a huge affection and respect for the Sikorskys. however, the EC225 is the cutting edge in terms of RELEVANT automation and systems integration. AW and the S92 have some great advances too and they will catch up.
Having said all of this I wholly agree with all your posts which are eloquent, well constructed and logical. Even one accident is unacceptable. loss of life intolerable. I can tell you that my Company's approach is that no stone shall be left unturned in resolving these issues and no steps ignored that could or would reduce risk to zero. This is the aim. In aviation we will forever by judged by our ability to be as close to that aim as possible.
Keep providing us with your opinions which 99% of my professional colleagues appreciate, understand and value. You represent what this is all about. the passengers.
SASLESS - Big respect for your support for the NS industry with you insightful posts and sharing your experiences with us. hands across the ocean!! Some of our wierd culture must have rubbed off on you eventually!!
DB
PM or call on the number given. It may not help you overcome your fear of the helicopter but it will make you understand just what a tremendous step forward the EC225 and the procedures we emply to operate it, really are. AW and Sikorsky are fine ships and as a 2.5K S61 driver I have a huge affection and respect for the Sikorskys. however, the EC225 is the cutting edge in terms of RELEVANT automation and systems integration. AW and the S92 have some great advances too and they will catch up.
Having said all of this I wholly agree with all your posts which are eloquent, well constructed and logical. Even one accident is unacceptable. loss of life intolerable. I can tell you that my Company's approach is that no stone shall be left unturned in resolving these issues and no steps ignored that could or would reduce risk to zero. This is the aim. In aviation we will forever by judged by our ability to be as close to that aim as possible.
Keep providing us with your opinions which 99% of my professional colleagues appreciate, understand and value. You represent what this is all about. the passengers.
SASLESS - Big respect for your support for the NS industry with you insightful posts and sharing your experiences with us. hands across the ocean!! Some of our wierd culture must have rubbed off on you eventually!!
DB