AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
Without knowing the seriousness of the trauma per survivor , ICU care required etc, length of recovery time etc etc, could be a long wait before they are able to describe the moments before the aircraft went into the sea. Valuable piece of first hand evidence, IMHO.
The FAkebpok site Destroying the Super Pumas, , the name in itself is ummmmm well judge for yourselves. iMHO, not sure it is appropriate. The accident has cast a dark cloud and like everything and the last thing is more negativity? Am sure like everything else, it was probably started with genuine intentions and people that work in the oil industry and care but best intentions do not always work. Maybe it would be better if the site was dedicated to the memory of those who perished and a speedy recovery for those that did survive and support for the families?
Admittedly did have a quick gander and its predominantly the pax and their relatives who are commenting. Though there was a bit about how better the S92 is, and some1 responded to by listing the date of incidents involving S92 including the Cougar fatality. There was also a guy whom everyone on the site has shunned and slagged off, let's say his name begins with D. D said
" Maybe they should put you all in rowboats because motorboats can travel to fast and turn over.Dont make a joke of the statitics,get another job where you dont have to fly to your workplace but get there on foot because you should now start a petition to destroy trains, busses and anything that moves because it could cause a accident. Are you being forced to do the job you are doing or do you do it of your own free will ?LETS JUST START A PETITION TO DESTROY EVERYTHING THAT MOVES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Utter and complete IDIOTS. SPEND YOUR LITTLE BRAINPOWER ON SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE !!!!"
Like some1 rightly said on here, one of the passenger gripes was about the delay of a flight because of a tech problem, so they decided to ground it, which showed the integrity of the operator to lose out and take the time in preventing an incident to fix. In the aforementioned Fakebook page a lot of the comments is from the pax observing the technical faults which cause the a/c to be grounded or returned back to base / helipad toute de suite. Nothing that remotely says "oh thankfully they did that" ?
Am sure there is the odd comment which has an ounce of substance to it, then possibly could be taken into the after actions
There is also a laughable from one person, that says
" Also ask why the army banned using super pumas a few years ago
Like · Reply · 23 · via mobile"
And the author of the above has an English name and writes in English so therefore when did the JHC operate the AS332 / 532 at any point!!
I've done Human Factor courses in aircraft maintenance and done the Robinson Helicopter Safety Course and am sure somewhere down the line, Human Factors will be part /play an appropriate and sizeable chunk of the investigation and the actions to follow the outcome?
All the best and speedy recovery to the survivors and thoughts with the families of those who perished.
The FAkebpok site Destroying the Super Pumas, , the name in itself is ummmmm well judge for yourselves. iMHO, not sure it is appropriate. The accident has cast a dark cloud and like everything and the last thing is more negativity? Am sure like everything else, it was probably started with genuine intentions and people that work in the oil industry and care but best intentions do not always work. Maybe it would be better if the site was dedicated to the memory of those who perished and a speedy recovery for those that did survive and support for the families?
Admittedly did have a quick gander and its predominantly the pax and their relatives who are commenting. Though there was a bit about how better the S92 is, and some1 responded to by listing the date of incidents involving S92 including the Cougar fatality. There was also a guy whom everyone on the site has shunned and slagged off, let's say his name begins with D. D said
" Maybe they should put you all in rowboats because motorboats can travel to fast and turn over.Dont make a joke of the statitics,get another job where you dont have to fly to your workplace but get there on foot because you should now start a petition to destroy trains, busses and anything that moves because it could cause a accident. Are you being forced to do the job you are doing or do you do it of your own free will ?LETS JUST START A PETITION TO DESTROY EVERYTHING THAT MOVES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Utter and complete IDIOTS. SPEND YOUR LITTLE BRAINPOWER ON SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE !!!!"
Like some1 rightly said on here, one of the passenger gripes was about the delay of a flight because of a tech problem, so they decided to ground it, which showed the integrity of the operator to lose out and take the time in preventing an incident to fix. In the aforementioned Fakebook page a lot of the comments is from the pax observing the technical faults which cause the a/c to be grounded or returned back to base / helipad toute de suite. Nothing that remotely says "oh thankfully they did that" ?
Am sure there is the odd comment which has an ounce of substance to it, then possibly could be taken into the after actions
There is also a laughable from one person, that says
" Also ask why the army banned using super pumas a few years ago
Like · Reply · 23 · via mobile"
And the author of the above has an English name and writes in English so therefore when did the JHC operate the AS332 / 532 at any point!!
I've done Human Factor courses in aircraft maintenance and done the Robinson Helicopter Safety Course and am sure somewhere down the line, Human Factors will be part /play an appropriate and sizeable chunk of the investigation and the actions to follow the outcome?
All the best and speedy recovery to the survivors and thoughts with the families of those who perished.
Last edited by chopper2004; 27th Aug 2013 at 14:24.
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May I suggest something maybe to make or reasurring to the bears.
before each departure would it not be an idea as part of the DVD breifing go down into the depatures lounge and take 10 minutes before start up and meet with the bears you going travel with and have an extra breifing with them and if they have any queries about travelling they can they can adress them to the crews and also they can see who they are flying with and they also be reasurred who and what they flying with in this very difficult times.
Just a sugestion.
before each departure would it not be an idea as part of the DVD breifing go down into the depatures lounge and take 10 minutes before start up and meet with the bears you going travel with and have an extra breifing with them and if they have any queries about travelling they can they can adress them to the crews and also they can see who they are flying with and they also be reasurred who and what they flying with in this very difficult times.
Just a sugestion.
Also what about the likes of the LA County Sheriff Department , are they gonna ground their Heli-One refurbished trio of L1? Will the Bundespolizei ground their fleet? They do operate SAR in the best or worst of weathers out in the Baltic?
Cheers
Cheers
Last edited by chopper2004; 6th Sep 2013 at 09:26.
Pumaboy, we have done that from time to time following previous incidents where passenger trust seemed to be waning. I expect we'll do it again when the 225 returns to service etc. My personal experience of that is that the passengers look at you with suspicion and are clearly thinking "what on earth are these guys doing here, why aren't they getting on with their real job" or "wow, things must be really bad because now they are sending the pilots down to try to sooth us".
Maybe it works for some, but not for any I have encountered.
Maybe it works for some, but not for any I have encountered.
before each departure would it not be an idea as part of the DVD breifing go down into the depatures lounge and take 10 minutes before start up and meet with the bears you going travel with and have an extra breifing with them and if they have any queries about travelling they can they can adress them to the crews and also they can see who they are flying with and they also be reasurred who and what they flying with in this very difficult times.
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HC:I understand Bond pilots brief their passengers in the daparture gates at all bases and this goes down very well.Maybe the offshore guys (you know the ones I said shouldn't be on this forum...humble pie being eaten!!)could comment if this gives any added confidence in seeing the crews face to face?
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Bristow statement to investors on the current L2 incident
Bristow advises investors of changes to Super Puma operations | Vertical Magazine
Bristow advises investors of changes to Super Puma operations | Vertical Magazine
On Aug. 26, Bristow Group filed the following report with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission:
On August 23, 2013, an incident occurred with an AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter operated by another helicopter company, which resulted in a ditching on the North Sea, near Sumburgh in the Shetland Isles, UK. The aircraft was carrying 16 passengers and two crew members at the time of the ditching. Four fatalities and multiple injuries were reported.
The cause of the incident is not yet known and is under investigation by authorities in the UK. To date there is no information to suggest that there is any connection between the current incident with the AS332 L2 aircraft and the prior incidents with the EC225 aircraft in the UK in May 2012 and October 2012. The EC225 incidents resulted in the issuance of a directive from the Civil Aviation Authority on October 25, 2012 suspending operations of the EC225 aircraft. No reports or directives have been issued by authorities in the UK as a result of the AS332 L2 incident. However, the Helicopter Safety Steering Group (HSSG), an industry group in the UK consisting of helicopter operators, union representatives and oil and gas customers, recommended as a precautionary measure on August 23, 2013 that operators suspend all Super Puma (which includes the AS332 L, AS332 L1, AS332 L2 and EC225 aircraft types) commercial passenger flights to and from offshore oil and gas installations within the UK. Separately, the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority (NCAA) on August 24, 2013 required operators of the AS332 L2 aircraft to suspend operations of the affected aircraft within Nigeria.
Bristow Group Inc. operates a total of twenty AS332 series aircraft worldwide as follows: AS332 L – Nine in Australia, one in Nigeria and seven in the UK; AS332 L1 – One in Australia; and AS332 L2 – Two in Nigeria.
The company has suspended operations of its two AS332 L2s in Nigeria. Consistent with the HSSG recommendation and after consultation with our customers, the company has also suspended operations of its seven AS332 Ls in the UK.
The company expects to increase utilization of other in-region aircraft and implement contingency plans designed to identify other available aircraft that can be safely and quickly mobilized to minimize or eliminate the impact on our clients’ critical operations. It is too early to determine whether the current incident will impact the timing of the return to service of the EC225 aircraft or otherwise have a material impact on the company.
On August 23, 2013, an incident occurred with an AS332 L2 Super Puma helicopter operated by another helicopter company, which resulted in a ditching on the North Sea, near Sumburgh in the Shetland Isles, UK. The aircraft was carrying 16 passengers and two crew members at the time of the ditching. Four fatalities and multiple injuries were reported.
The cause of the incident is not yet known and is under investigation by authorities in the UK. To date there is no information to suggest that there is any connection between the current incident with the AS332 L2 aircraft and the prior incidents with the EC225 aircraft in the UK in May 2012 and October 2012. The EC225 incidents resulted in the issuance of a directive from the Civil Aviation Authority on October 25, 2012 suspending operations of the EC225 aircraft. No reports or directives have been issued by authorities in the UK as a result of the AS332 L2 incident. However, the Helicopter Safety Steering Group (HSSG), an industry group in the UK consisting of helicopter operators, union representatives and oil and gas customers, recommended as a precautionary measure on August 23, 2013 that operators suspend all Super Puma (which includes the AS332 L, AS332 L1, AS332 L2 and EC225 aircraft types) commercial passenger flights to and from offshore oil and gas installations within the UK. Separately, the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority (NCAA) on August 24, 2013 required operators of the AS332 L2 aircraft to suspend operations of the affected aircraft within Nigeria.
Bristow Group Inc. operates a total of twenty AS332 series aircraft worldwide as follows: AS332 L – Nine in Australia, one in Nigeria and seven in the UK; AS332 L1 – One in Australia; and AS332 L2 – Two in Nigeria.
The company has suspended operations of its two AS332 L2s in Nigeria. Consistent with the HSSG recommendation and after consultation with our customers, the company has also suspended operations of its seven AS332 Ls in the UK.
The company expects to increase utilization of other in-region aircraft and implement contingency plans designed to identify other available aircraft that can be safely and quickly mobilized to minimize or eliminate the impact on our clients’ critical operations. It is too early to determine whether the current incident will impact the timing of the return to service of the EC225 aircraft or otherwise have a material impact on the company.
Mechta's idea has merit. Who would frame the Terms of Reference? OGUK's HSSG?
Genie; I welcomed the appearance of the crewmember at Bond's Aberdeen departure lounge, as it gave me an opportunity to get reacquainted with some colleagues from my past life in a growbag. I have no idea what my fellow passengers thought about the concept. Perhaps they wondered what the other Stick Monkey was up-to in their absence?
Genie; I welcomed the appearance of the crewmember at Bond's Aberdeen departure lounge, as it gave me an opportunity to get reacquainted with some colleagues from my past life in a growbag. I have no idea what my fellow passengers thought about the concept. Perhaps they wondered what the other Stick Monkey was up-to in their absence?
Last edited by diginagain; 27th Aug 2013 at 15:24.
GtG - it will be interesting to see what the response is. In my view, when I fly with "Big Airline" I don't expect a face to face briefing from the pilots. If I were to take a ride from some hick Grand Canyon tour operator in a 206, I would expect to get such a briefing. Therefore to me, it smacks of amateurishness, but I am quite happy to be corrected if the pax perceive it differently.
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Let us also mention that Bristow last put a SP in the N Sea water in 1995
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HC first of all everything you have posted on this thread I have to agree with you 100%
With your last post I hear what you are saying but in this difficult situation when we trying to gain confidence back in the sp fleet I think the punters see it that the crews are taking a little more time to take time an answer any queries the punters may have.
I have keep quite for long enough now and will probably get burned but here I go.
Regarding the FB site I think it should be taking down as I do not think it is right for such an a/c that has generated millions of hours and saved the oil companies millions of dollars when criticle spare parts/components have flown out on a sp at hours notice when it could shut down an installation and caused millions of dollars in lost revenue when it would have taken hours by supply vessel.
These small details are very quickly forgotten.
To me this is a total disrespect to the super puma familiy and I for one is very dissapionted at the hatred shown towards the Super Puma
It has flown many millions of safe hours and yes it has had it moments I do not argue with that but what happens if a S92 were to fall out of the sky's are you to start hatered to towards the S92 and have that banned.
To me the Super Puma is a very safe helicopter and very reilable and would rather fly in a Super Puma than any other helicopter.
I here what the offshore worker is saying and fully understand your arguments but you are reacting to an accident we do not even know the cause of, we are in the habit of listening and reading what the media have to say and most of the time it is BS.
Would it be better waiting for the facts to be published and then take reaction to it afterwards than to start a group calling for the scrapping of the Super Puma as simply riduclous.
With your last post I hear what you are saying but in this difficult situation when we trying to gain confidence back in the sp fleet I think the punters see it that the crews are taking a little more time to take time an answer any queries the punters may have.
I have keep quite for long enough now and will probably get burned but here I go.
Regarding the FB site I think it should be taking down as I do not think it is right for such an a/c that has generated millions of hours and saved the oil companies millions of dollars when criticle spare parts/components have flown out on a sp at hours notice when it could shut down an installation and caused millions of dollars in lost revenue when it would have taken hours by supply vessel.
These small details are very quickly forgotten.
To me this is a total disrespect to the super puma familiy and I for one is very dissapionted at the hatred shown towards the Super Puma
It has flown many millions of safe hours and yes it has had it moments I do not argue with that but what happens if a S92 were to fall out of the sky's are you to start hatered to towards the S92 and have that banned.
To me the Super Puma is a very safe helicopter and very reilable and would rather fly in a Super Puma than any other helicopter.
I here what the offshore worker is saying and fully understand your arguments but you are reacting to an accident we do not even know the cause of, we are in the habit of listening and reading what the media have to say and most of the time it is BS.
Would it be better waiting for the facts to be published and then take reaction to it afterwards than to start a group calling for the scrapping of the Super Puma as simply riduclous.
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Hey GTG,
I agree with HC that is seems amateurish...I would rather the crew spent all their time planning the flights and covering all the options and scenarios rather than one going off to brief the Pax....(quite often being the captain,leaving the co-jo to plan/finish up etc) with the one hour report time before flight doesn't actually leave much time for anything extra...When I board an airliner I like to see the two pilots in the cockpit taking care of business, covering all eventualities etc and wouldn't like it if one was chatting to the pax at the gate while one was in the cockpit doing things alone(the reason for two crew is to monitor each other)!
Does it make the Passengers feel better?? Split opinions on that one, some like it, some actually think the companies are trying to hide something!!!
Cheers.
I agree with HC that is seems amateurish...I would rather the crew spent all their time planning the flights and covering all the options and scenarios rather than one going off to brief the Pax....(quite often being the captain,leaving the co-jo to plan/finish up etc) with the one hour report time before flight doesn't actually leave much time for anything extra...When I board an airliner I like to see the two pilots in the cockpit taking care of business, covering all eventualities etc and wouldn't like it if one was chatting to the pax at the gate while one was in the cockpit doing things alone(the reason for two crew is to monitor each other)!
Does it make the Passengers feel better?? Split opinions on that one, some like it, some actually think the companies are trying to hide something!!!
Cheers.
cyclic, I mentioned JSAR in post #441. I know I have posted a lot, but please don't accuse me of doing something (or omitting to do something) that I have in fact done.
In that post I mentioned JSAR but said I was omitting if from that particular post. So hardly a cover-up!
I didn't say why, but this is why:
It was a SAR machine, not an oil and gas crewchange machine, and once you start comparing accident rates for aircraft in completely different roles, it all gets rather daft.
Secondly, and frustratingly, the cause of that ditching was never really established so its hard to make any comment about it - ie was it the fault of the operator, the manufacturer, pilot issues or technical issues (or a combination) or what.
In that post I mentioned JSAR but said I was omitting if from that particular post. So hardly a cover-up!
I didn't say why, but this is why:
It was a SAR machine, not an oil and gas crewchange machine, and once you start comparing accident rates for aircraft in completely different roles, it all gets rather daft.
Secondly, and frustratingly, the cause of that ditching was never really established so its hard to make any comment about it - ie was it the fault of the operator, the manufacturer, pilot issues or technical issues (or a combination) or what.
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I think that all the hatred posted on FB is unwarranted and has been promoted by an ill informed press who are sensationalising and scaremongering to increase sales. Most "followers" have simply "liked" the page out of ignorance and do not really understand the issues.
I for one would be happy to step aboard any variant of Puma.
For offshore workers to complain if an aircraft is late because of a technical fault and then accuse operators of being complacent is a bit two faced and before I get derided for saying this I am an offshore worker and hear the petty crumblings in the "teashack" all day.
We do not yet know the cause of the recent accident and until we do we should reserve judgement.
I for one would be happy to step aboard any variant of Puma.
For offshore workers to complain if an aircraft is late because of a technical fault and then accuse operators of being complacent is a bit two faced and before I get derided for saying this I am an offshore worker and hear the petty crumblings in the "teashack" all day.
We do not yet know the cause of the recent accident and until we do we should reserve judgement.
Why do we see Airline flying being any different from helicopter fights offshore?
We offer a safe, efficient, if not very commodious cabin environment, aerial transportation to the passengers desired destination.
The end result should be the same....on time departure, safe arrival, and hopefully the baggage arrives along with the passenger.
Who does the briefing does not matter....so long as the briefing is done before every single flight.
The passengers have an obligation to pay attention to the Briefing so they can be prepared should something go wrong and they need to perform those actions necessitated by the problem.
That being said....having a personal touch with the passengers is not a bad thing....but after all....Pilots have other important duties to perform that have far more to do with the safe conduct of flight than doing a Pax Briefing.
I do sometimes wonder what drives the "militancy" of the offshore passenger....is it only a concern about helicopter safety....or are there other factors at play here?
We offer a safe, efficient, if not very commodious cabin environment, aerial transportation to the passengers desired destination.
The end result should be the same....on time departure, safe arrival, and hopefully the baggage arrives along with the passenger.
Who does the briefing does not matter....so long as the briefing is done before every single flight.
The passengers have an obligation to pay attention to the Briefing so they can be prepared should something go wrong and they need to perform those actions necessitated by the problem.
That being said....having a personal touch with the passengers is not a bad thing....but after all....Pilots have other important duties to perform that have far more to do with the safe conduct of flight than doing a Pax Briefing.
I do sometimes wonder what drives the "militancy" of the offshore passenger....is it only a concern about helicopter safety....or are there other factors at play here?
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No problem with accpeting opinions Fatigue that's why we are all on here. I don't have to brief in that manner so no skin off my nose I have just heard some passengers like the eye to eye contact. If it's eating into planning time then that's a safety issue and I completely agree with you however knowing some of the Bond pilots I would doubt if they would allow that to happen.
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In the short term, how about another appoach? A confidential survey, or confidential interviews with all personnel who have worked for more than one North Sea helicopter operator? It is bound to identify examples of how similar incidents were handled in different ways.
My concern is that the further away from the spanners/cyclic stick/ops room one goes, the more the true 'modus operandi' is distorted and the detail missed. Only by being right where the decisions are made, can a true feel for the way a helicopter is operated be made.
